The Parable of the Wheat and the Tares

Many people fail to contemplate the significance of the parable of the wheat and the tares for our eschatological framework.  You can find the parable in Matthew 13:24-30 and the explanation given by Christ in 36-43.
 
The parable is quite significant given that many Israelite believers understood the Kingdom of Heaven to be something quite different from what Christ was preaching and exercising.  They felt that the judgement of the heathen would result in the coming of the kingdom.  Christ introduced something quite different without leaving the judgement of the heathen completely out.  The world will be judged at the end of the age, but for the present, the kingdom of heaven will exist in a way that was unexpected.  The kingdom of heaven came with Christ and continued with His disciples into the church.  But the breaking forth of the kingdom of heaven into the affairs of men allowed the judgement of the heathen to remain yet in the future.  God began working through Christ and those who believed on Him without disrupting the order of this age.
 
Wheat and tares will grow together until the end of this age.  At the end of this age, there will be a judgement whereby the holy angels will gather out of His kingdom all things that practise iniquity.  The tares will be cast into the fire, but the wheat will be gathered together into the barn.  This is the time that the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.  The connection to the resurrection by referencing Daniel 12:2-3 is undeniable.  The resurrection of the righteous as this age is being brought to a close happens at the same time that the unrighteous are judged.
 
But what of a timeline here?  Wheat and tares growing together until the end of the age, then the tares are gathered together first and set aside for burning, then the wheat is gathered into the barn.  The time of the wheat being gathered together into the barn correlates with the righteous shining forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.  So the time of the righteous being gathered by angels at the end of the age is the time when they will receive their resurrection bodies. 
 
Note also that the context is speaking of the kingdom of heaven and the establishment of it upon the earth.  The kingdom of heaven will not be established on the earth until after a period of time (the church dispensation) during which the wheat and tares are intermingled with no judgement upon the heathen.  At the end of this period in time there will be a judgement or separation which will result in the kingdom of heaven being established upon the earth with no further intermingling of wheat and tares.  Only the righteous will be included in the kingdom of the Father as it is established at the time of the two phases of the harvest at the end of the age.  Sidebar:  Luke 20:35-36 equates obtaining the age to come with being children of the resurrection.  So the wheat being gathered into the barn is not the Father taking the righteous into heaven.  It is the righteous entering into the kingdom of the heavens established here on earth in their resurrection bodies, note the subtle difference.
 
Two little addendum pieces before I close.  First off, I’ve already posted on the two age teaching of Jesus back on 12-14-06.  But I must reiterate, Christ taught two ages and this parable is another example.  In the Olivet Discourse Christ was teaching about the sign of His coming as it is tied to the end of this age.  The gathering by the angels which happens at the glorious coming (Matthew 24:31) must be this same gathering since they are both at the end of the age.  In Matthew 13, the reapers are the angels who gaher the wheat into the barn, and in Matthew 24:31 the angels gather together the elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.  Mark’s gospel words it that the elect will be gathered the uttermost part of earth to the uttermost part of heaven.  Also, for you great commission Christians out there, the great commission as given in Matthew 28:18-20 is the mission of the church until the end of the age, and Matthew has written two times here describing the end of the age.  The church must preach the gospel throughout all the earth until the end of the age as described in the parable of the wheat and the tares and as described in the Olivet Discourse.
 
Secondly, when we come to Revelation 14:14-20 describing a two phase harvest, how could we expect anything but a parallel to the wheat and the tares?  The Son of Man comes on a cloud just as He said He would (Acts 1:9-11, Revelation 1:7), He reaps the earth to Himself, then what remains is reaped for judgement being thrown into the great winepress of the wrath of God.  Here we have another mention of the timing of the resurrection and rapture, and it is squarely between the great tribulation as described in Revelation 13, and the wrath of God as described during the bowls in Revelation 16.  That’s PreWrath.  It baffles me that many Classic PreWrathers deny the connection between the two reapings in Revelation 14 and the parable of the wheat and the tares.  Here the PreWrath Rapture is staring them in the face in another portion of scripture.  They’ve already seen it in Matthew 24, Mark 13, I Thessalonians 4 with II Thessalonians 2, and at the sixth seal; why not here as well?
 
Have fun and stay busy – Luke 19:13
 
-The Orange Mailman
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14 Responses to The Parable of the Wheat and the Tares

  1. Kerry says:

    Hi Orange,
     
    You are so close…lol… 😉
     
    He reaps the earth to Himself, then what remains is reaped for judgement being thrown into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
     
    I think you have that backwards.
     
    Mat 13:47  Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind: Mat 13:48  Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away. Mat 13:49  So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, Mat 13:50  And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Mat 13:51  Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things? They say unto him, Yea, Lord.
     
    The wicked/tares are removed from among the just.  They go first.  Other than that I agree with all you have said. 
     
    Peace,
    Seeker 
     
     
     
     

  2. Darrin says:

    Hey Seeker-  I almost thought about posting our little debate, but perhaps another time.  I don\’t think I have it backwards.  My clip you posted refers to Revelation 14 which has a sequence of its own. 
     
    Have fun and stay busy – Luke 19:13
     
    -The Orange Mailman

  3. Kerry says:

    Hi Darrin,
     
    “Hey Seeker-  I almost thought about posting our little debate, but perhaps another time.  I don\’t think I have it backwards.  My clip you posted refers to Revelation 14 which has a sequence of its own.”
     
    Maybe we can continue part of it here…Yes Rev 14 is an interesting chapter indeed.
     
    Rev 14:6  And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
    Rev 14:7  Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
     
    Here we see an angel preaching to all nations and peoples.  Everyone will be given the chance to hear the gospel.  The angel also announces that the hour of God’s judgment has arrived.  This is it believe now or never.
     
    Rev 14:8  And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
     
    The next verse after the hour of God’s judgment was announced says Babylon has fallen at this point.
     
    Rev 18:10  Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.
     
    Babylon falls in one hour (the Lord’s judgment).  Babylon is also shown in Rev 16.
     
    Rev 16:19  And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
    Rev 16:20  And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
     
    The timing of Babylon falling is clearly at the end of the age.  Back to Rev 14.
     
    Rev 14:8  And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
    Rev 14:9  And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
    Rev 14:10  The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
    Rev 14:11  And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
    Rev 14:12  Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
    Rev 14:13  And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
     
    After Babylon has fallen men are still warned not to accept the MoB.  Blessed are those that die henceforth…the patience of the saints.  Would not Babylon be considered as part of the tares?  God takes out Babylon and then saints are warned not to take the mark.  The OT is full of nations who face the day of the Lord and God’s wrath.  God takes out Israel’s enemies first and then gathers Israel to Himself in all cases in the OT.
     
    If we go before the tares that leaves the saints of Rev 14 to be gathered at a different time than the rest of the church.  But yet they are warned not to take the mark.  If they don’t take the mark they are part of the group resurrected in Rev 20:4.  The dead in Christ rise first before we who remain and are alive.
     

  4. Kerry says:

    If the tares go first as Matt 13 says in two places there is no problem we all are gathered at the same time.  Jesus returns in flaming vengeance when He returns.   
    2Th 1:7  And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
    2Th 1:8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
    2Th 1:9  Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
    2Th 1:10  When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
     Jesus returns destroying evil.
     Rev 6:12  And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
    Rev 6:13  And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
    Rev 6:14  And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
    Rev 6:15  And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
    Rev 6:16  And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
     First thing after the cosmic signs is men hiding from the wrath of the Lamb.
     2Th 2:1  Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,…….2Th 2:8  And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
    Jesus destroying the AC with the brightness of His arrival.  They all show the same event, Jesus returning to remove the tares like Matt 13 says.  Remember Noah…
     Mat 24:37  But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
    Mat 24:38  For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
    Mat 24:39  And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
     They were living as normal until the day Noah entered the ark.  They had no clue until the flood came and took them all away.  So shall the coming of Jesus be.  The ones taken are the sinners.  They were taken in Noah’s days.  The righteous, Noah and family, remained while the sinners were taken from among them.  This is what will happen when Jesus arrives.  It will be as the days of Noah.  The sinners were severed from among the just.
     
    Peace,
    Seeker

  5. Kerry says:

    Sorry about the formatting there…lol…had to break it into two posts to post it.  They are backwards too…it begins at the lower post.  Maybe you can edit it and clean it up.  It added extra spaces on me so I think that was part of taking up to much space for one post.  Live and learn…lol
     
    Peace,
    Seeker

  6. Darrin says:

    Hey Seeker-
     
    I think you\’re just a tad off on your Babylon chronology.  There is an announcement in Revelation 14 which tells us that Babylon is fallen.  The events of Rev. 14 are intimately associated with the return of Christ which happens after the events of the great tribulation which is described in Rev. 13.  However, it is not the end of the age just yet.  Babylon is destroyed in two phases.  One phase is associated very near the coming of Christ, but is not directly initiated by Christ.  Note Rev. 17:16-17 which tells us that the agents which God uses to cause Babylon to fall are actually the ten horns, the ten kings who have given their allegiance to the beast.  The second phase of Babylon\’s destruction occurs at the seventh bowl and is directly initiated by God.  In the description of the destruction of Babylon we have two distinct categories.  One is the burning by fire which is contained in 18:8, 9, 18.  But there is another aspect overlooked by many.  The destruction in 18:21 contains no burning, only a casting into the sea.  So the destruction at the end of the age is at the same time that God is judging the beast and the ten kings.  The destruction in Rev. 14 is actually being accomplished by the ten kings that the beast alone might be worshiped.  The prostitute is first burned, and later cast into the sea.
     
    So the events of Rev. 14 are clearly at the return of Christ after the tribulation but before the wrath of God contained in the bowls.  The reaping of the righteous is clearly before the reaping for wrath.  The warning not to take the mark of the beast is not nullified by the destruction of Babylon.
     
    As far as the days of Noah, there are two types in the OT to be noticed.  Noah is one, Lot is the other, Luke 17.  Noah was preserved through, but Lot was carried out by angels just before the fire descended.  Noah is the type for Israel, preserved through; Lot is the type for the church, carried out by angels.  Lot was gathered out from the sinners, but each and every sinner in Sodom and Gomorrah was marked for destruction.  God knew exactly how many righteous were in those cities.  This present earth is marked for destruction as well, II Peter 3:7.  So I can\’t see the objections you raise on those grounds alone.
     
    And concerning the regathering of the physical nation of Israel, that can\’t be confused with the gathering of God\’s people to Himself to be supernaturally protected from His wrath at the time of the resurrection.  Isaiah 26:16-21 is the resurrection/rapture, but the regathering of physical Israel after this time is described in Isaiah 27:12-13.  So, yes, God takes out Israel\’s enemies before regathering Israel, but the resurrection/rapture is before God deals with Israel\’s enemies.
     
    "Live and learn"???  Well… Hopefully… Maybe… By God\’s grace…
     
    Have fun and stay busy – Luke 19:13
     
    -The Orange Mailman

  7. Kerry says:

    Hi Orange,
     
    "So the events of Rev. 14 are clearly at the return of Christ after the tribulation but before the wrath of God contained in the bowls.  The reaping of the righteous is clearly before the reaping for wrath.  The warning not to take the mark of the beast is not nullified by the destruction of Babylon."
     
    If it is before God\’s wrath then who are these gathered in Rev 14?
     
    Rev 14:19  And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
     
    They are cast into the great winepress of the wrath of God.  If the sinners have been gathered here then who is left for God to pour His wrath upon later? 
     
    Peace,Seeker

  8. Darrin says:

    Hey Seeker-  I see two reapings here.  One is by Christ.  The unspoken element is that He is reaping to Himself.  The second reaping is by an angel with a sharp sickle.  The first reaping is compared to a grain harvest.  The second reaping is compared to a vintage.
     
    The winepress is symbolic in some ways.  I don\’t believe there will be a literal winepress into which these ungodly people are physically thrown.  Those who have been marked for judgement will be thrown into the winepress simply because they are still present on the earth after the first reaping.  The day of the LORD will commence at this time which is the time of the wrath of God.  Therefore, those had been troubling the church will be thrown into the winepress since Christ is now present to take vengeance.
     
    So for the first reaping, I see a physical gathering.  For the second reaping, I see no physical gathering, only portent of what is about to take place.  I do believe there is a timing for the event of the blood flow due to the influence of Mo.  I\’ve got a copy of the work that Mo did on the winepress.  It\’s pretty good.
     
    So in answer to your question, all sinners are not gathered together at this time.  They are marked for judgement.  As we read about the bowls, we understand that those who are experiencing the wrath of the bowls are in the winepress of His wrath.  It is actually God\’s plan to save the nations at Christ\’s second coming.  But that\’s another subject.
     
    Have fun and stay busy – Luke 19:13
     
    -The Orange Mailman

  9. Kerry says:

    Hi Orange,
     
    Just a question….what are these sinners, who are being marked for judgment, doing while Jesus is performing the first reaping?  Be careful it is a loaded question…lol…but would you expect anything less than that from me?…lol.
     
    Later,
    Seeker

  10. Darrin says:

    Alright, Seeker, I\’ll bite.  I\’ve always been a sucker for a good debate.
     
    Those who are being marked for judgement are those who are taking the mark of the beast, or who are actively persecuting the church.  I\’ve mentioned before to you that the tares being gathered first should be taken in the context of the parable, and that is, they are gathered out of the kingdom of heaven.  Christ declared that the kingdom had come but had not interrupted the status quo.  The church would be established – BUT, along with the wheat being planted, there would be "fake wheat", or tares.
     
    The Great Tribulation will introduce the time of decision for all who name the name of Christ.  There will be no nominal Christians just sitting on the sideline.  If you call yourself a Christian you may have to prove it by refusing to take the mark of the beast.  In this way, the tares will be gathered out of the kingdom before the wheat is gathered into the barn.  What nominal Christian would refuse the mark which would result in not allowing them to hold a job, buy food, own a home, and may result in the death penalty?
     
    If I might slightly anticipate your next move, there will be those who do not take the mark of the beast, yet are not a part of the church.  The goal of the beast (antichrist) will be to dictate this policy to the entire world, but his time will be cut short.  Christ returns, raptures the church, pours out His wrath on those who have taken the mark, slaughters all who come against Him at the battle of Armageddon, then assumes authority over the kingdoms of this world.  Those who are left will be here to populate the Millennial Kingdom.  By purging the earth through the trumpet and bowl judgements, God will actually be saving this world in the same way He saved it during the days of Noah.
     
    Did I swallow the bait?
     
    Have fun and stay busy – Luke 19:13
     
    -The Orange Mailman

  11. Kerry says:

    No you didn\’t bite…lol.  I am interested in what the sinners are doing at the precise moment Jesus reaps the earth the 1st time, when He raptures the saints.  What are the sinners doing at that moment?
     
    Peace,
    Seeker

  12. Darrin says:

    Weeeeeell, I thought I knew which direction you were going but I guess I\’m not so smart after all.  First off, I really don\’t know what each and every person will be doing who does not get raptured at the time the church is being raptured.  But I have developed some views based on my studies.
     
    Joel 2:28-32 ~ Some will repent and call on the name of the LORD at the cosmic signs.  Whoever calls on the name of the LORD in light of the sun going dark, etc.
    Matthew 24:30, Luke 21:26, Revelation 6:15-17, Isaiah 66:5 ~ Many will be ashamed, mourn, and attempt to hide themselves knowing that the wrath of God will shortly fall on them.  Some may even keel over of a heart attack.  What would possess someone to crawl underneath a rock and cry out, "Please fall on me because I can\’t face the man on that throne!"
     
    How\’s that?

  13. Kerry says:

    Hi Orange,
     
    Oh you are plenty smart don\’t go there…you\’ll have this turned around on me if I am not careful…lol.  Remember I have debated with you before.  Ok back to the topic at hand.  I wanted you to keep in mind the reaction of sinners when they see Jesus arriving with the clouds.
     
    Joel 2:31  The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
     
    Joel 2 says that the cosmic signs we see in Matthew 24 happen before that terrible day of the Lord.  Joel 3 continues the story and speaks of the cosmic signs again.
     
    Joe 3:15  The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining. Joe 3:16  The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel. Joe 3:17  So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.
     
    The next thing mentioned after the cosmic signs is the Lord roaring out of Jerusalem.  He is in Jerusalem at this point.  Joel 2 says that after the cosmic signs we have the day of the Lord.  This is what is before the cosmic signs.
     
    Joe 3:9  Proclaim ye this among the Gentiles; Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up: Joe 3:10  Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong. Joe 3:11  Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O LORD. Joe 3:12  Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about. Joe 3:13  Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great. Joe 3:14  Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision. Joe 3:15  The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.
     
    The armies have been prepared for war and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat.  Let the heathen be wakened God will sit to judge all the heathen.  Now compare Joel 3:13 to Rev 14:19.
     
    Joe 3:13  Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.
     
    Rev 14:19  And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.Rev 14:20  And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.
     
    Joel 3 and Rev 14 are talking about the same event.  Joel 3:18 sets the timing of that event for us.
     
    Joe 3:18  And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the rivers of Judah shall flow with waters, and a fountain shall come forth of the house of the LORD, and shall water the valley of Shittim.
     
    In the day that was just described, associated with the cosmic signs, the Lord begins dwelling from Jerusalem.  Both of these occur at the millennium or very end of the last 7 years.  The Gentiles preparing for war is the same as Rev 19.  Joel 2-3 describe events near the cosmic signs.  They describe a war in Israel and then God defeating the invading armies and then Israel being saved.  The same sequence as Rev 19-20.
     
    Mat 24:29  Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
     
    Immeadiately after the tribulation of those days….This means that the worst tribulation that there has ever been or will ever be is finished immediately before the cosmic signs.  The AC is responsible for that tribulation.  We know precisely how long he has to persecute the saints from Daniel 7 and Rev 13.
     
    Rev 13:5  And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. Rev 13:6  And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. Rev 13:7  And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
     
    Dan 7:21  I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; Dan 7:22  Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
     
    Dan 7:25  And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. Dan 7:26  But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end. Dan 7:27  And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.
     
    The AC makes war and overcomes the saints for 3 1/2 years until the Ancient of days came and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.  Judgment will sit and they will take away his (AC) dominion and destroy it unto the end and the everlasting kingdom will be given to the saints. 
     
    The AC makes war with the saints until they take his dominion away and the kingdom is given to the saints.  The AC is defeated prior to the saints receiving the kingdom.  He is removed first and then the rightoeus shine as the sun in the kingdom of the Father. 
     
    Everywhere you look the sinners are dealt with first and then we are gathered.  Orange there is no other way to read this verse and the rest of scripture agrees with this verse.
     
    Mat 13:49  So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
     
    The first thing after the cosmic signs in Rev 6 is men hiding from the wrath of God.  The first thing after the cosmic signs in Matt 24 is all tribes mourning.  Joel 2 says the terrible day of the Lord is after the cosmic signs and Joel 3 shows Jesus roaring out of Jerusalem just after the cosmic signs.  Isaiah 13 shows the removal of sinners from the land just after the cosmic signs.
    The cosmic signs occur just prior to Jesus being revealed from the heavens.  Jesus returns in flaming fire taking vengence on those that don\’t know God in 2Th1.  Orange it all says the same thing.  Jesus compared it to the days of Noah when all sinners were removed leaving only Noah.  It is everywhere you look if you can see it.  Jesus returns once, destroys sinners, and then gathers us, and then the millennium.  It is that simple Darrin, I don\’t really know how else to try to show you but read the scriptures that is what they say consistantly and it matches all the "last day" raisings of John.  It all fits together in a simple, biblically consistant manner.  Anyway it really doesn\’t matter that much you will see it when it happens…
     
    Peace,Seeker

  14. Darrin says:

    Hey Seeker-
     
    So I guess we\’re going to Joel 3 now.  Joel is an interesting book.  Chapter 3 begins a new thought flow.  The end of the captivity is the subject.  The gathering of all nations will happen, but this is not the same as the army which advanced on Jerusalem (Zion where the house of God is) in chapter 2.  Chapter 2 focuses on the repentance of Israel.  Chapter 3 focuses on the heathen, God\’s treatment of them in order to end the days of captivity, and the summoning of the armies of the heathen (Gentiles) in order to deal with them in the valley of decision.  Joel 2 is God anticipating the repentance of His people, Joel 3 is God acting on their behalf since they have repented.
     
    The prophets didn\’t always list everything chronologically as we would have like them to have done.  They prophesied why\’s, how\’s, and what\’s many times.  The timing of the winepress is the beginning of the wrath of God.  It doesn\’t occur until after the harvesting of the earth by the son of man.  Joel 3 is simply showing how it all relates together, not necessarily a step by step of what will happen.  In verse 2 God proclaims what He will do, followed by the why.  He will gather all nations, because they have treated my people in such a way, verses 3-8.  Then the taunting of the LORD in verses 9-12 which is the how of verse 2.
     
    So in verse 13, yes the heathen are ready to harvest for their wickedness is great.  Verse 14 tells us that there are literally multitudes and that the day of the LORD is near.
     
    Verses 15-17 step back and give a summary of everything we have learned in the entire book.  The sun and moon will be darkened, then the LORD will roar (become jealous for His people and act on their behalf), then Israel will know their God as He dwells in Mount Zion.  Then we in verse 18 we have a description of the promises made in 2:18-27 fulfilled as the earth is changed during the Messianic reign.
     
    The cosmic signs don\’t happen twice.  2:31 determines sequence with the day of the LORD since we have the word "before".  3:15 does not determine sequence since no such word appears.  It is a summary of the entire picture.
     
    You seem to have a fixation with quoting Daniel 7:25.  You must remember that Daniel received the basics of the vision, but it was refined in the New Testament.  The saints will be subject to the reign of the antichrist for 3 1/2 years.  However, the NT tells us that those days will be cut short.  Revelation 13:5 tells us that the entire time for the beast to continue (after the midpoint) is 42 months.  That doesn\’t mean 43 months as some like to think that the antichrist is alive and well when Daniel\’s seventieth week comes to an end.  The antichrist is alive during the bowls and meets his doom at the seventh bowl when the slaughter of Armageddon happens.  Therefore, the bowls are a part of the 42 months of which Rev. 13:5 speaks.  The winepress occurs before the 42 months is up being a portent of the bowls which immediately follows.  The seventh bowl is the end of the 42 months with the saints being gathered in 14:14-16 before the winepress is mentioned.
     
    The idea of the tares being gathered first is simply a PreMillennial distinctive to show that we are not to be wisked away to heaven never to set foot on earth again.  The wheat will be gathered into the barn, meaning shining forth in the kingdom of the Father which will be established here on earth.  Other passages give us the exact sequence of how the tares will be dealt with in order to purge them from the earth that the wheat may be gathered into the barn.  Yes, the tares are dealt with first before the kingdom is given to the saints, but that doesn\’t prove a post-trib rapture, or a rapture which keeps the resurrected here on the earth during the wrath of God as contained in the trumpets and bowls.
     
    Good thoughts.  Keep studying (and seeking).
     
    Have fun and stay busy – Luke 19:13
     
    -The Orange Mailman

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