Two subjects came together as one subject. While contending on the PreWrath only message board that at Armageddon, Jesus Christ does not come riding out of heaven, but instead is already back while the armies of the beast gather against Him, the subject of Revelation 16:15 was being posted on Alan Kurschner’s Prewrath Rapture Dot Com
. The subject is one that I take a strong stance on since I believe so many are misinformed concerning the timing of Christ’s glorious second coming.
Armageddon is not the time that Christ returns, He has returned before this time having already established His parousia on the earth. Armageddon is an event that happens in response to Christ’s return if you examine the scriptures. Here are the ones that I cite:
Revelaton 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Notice here that the purpose for the gathering of the beast and armies are to make war against Christ who is seated upon the horse. The scenario that I hear over and over again is that the beast is gathering together against Israel and Christ comes riding out of heaven just in the nick of time to save His chosen people. According to this passage, Christ’s presence on the earth is the reason for the gathering of the beast and armies.
Zechariah 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. 2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. 4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
Verse 4 here is usually taken completely out of context to show that Christ descends to the Mount of Olives at His return. Not so, read the text. He GOES FORTH
to the Mount of Olives since He is already present on the earth. He has already presented Himself to Israel as described in Zechariah chapter 12. Now after Israel has repented, the nations are gathering against Christ who GOES FORTH to meet them in battle. Actually, battle is not the right word. It really isn’t a battle at all. It’s more like the slaughter of Armageddon. To quote Ron Wallace
, "He speaks, they die." Not much of a battle if you ask me.
Psalm 2:2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,
Psalm 2 is a Messianic Psalm which should be studied in its context since is the time at which the Anointed One is proclaimed King on Zion. I use this brief quote to demonstrate the consistency that even in the Old Testament the kings of earth will gather together against the Anointed One, which is translated as Christ in the Greek, see Acts 4:26.
Psalm 110:2 The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies. 5 The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath.
Psalm 110 is another Messianic Psalm. Since it only has seven verses, studying it is not difficult. The text plainly states that Christ’s rule will begin IN THE MIDST of His enemies after which He will strike through kings in the day of His wrath.
Here is the error that I see in almost every position. It is the attempt to reconcile scripture by dividing Christ’s second coming into two second comings. I see it in the PreTrib position, the Mid-Trib position, and even in the PreWrath position. I was surprised to read in a fairly well written PreWrath book that the author believed that Christ would come to rapture the church at the sixth seal, then come again at Armageddon. This was after the author had argued against dividing Christ’s second coming up into two second comings like so many PreTribbers do. Sorry, but that’s a double standard. PostTrib and Historical PreMillennialism are the positions that remain uniform about not dividing Christ’s second coming into two separate comings. My hope is that PreWrathers will come to this understanding as well. Once Christ has returned, there will be a timeline during which many things will happen. It won’t all happen the minute He returns.
I read Alan’s post dated 3-29-07 here
with great appreciation since this verse is used by PostTribbers to justify telescoping, which compromises the chronology of Revelation. Alan’s solution contains a good many insights, but in the end, he has adopted the idea that Christ’s coming at Armageddon is the solution. Based on the above evidence, we need not come to that conclusion. You can read Alan’s insights posted on the PreWrath Only Message board regarding Revelation 19 here
, which were actually in response to my post. I took the liberty of responding to Alan’s post and included a slight critique of his post regarding Revelation 16:15 on Prewrath Rapture Dot Com. Here it is:
Yes, I have a few thoughts. First off, let’s start out with all the
presuppositions that I have heard over and over again from the
PreTrib view. The nations have gathered against Israel and are just
about to wipe Israel out. Jesus comes riding out of heaven on a
white horse just in the nick of time to save them. At this point in
time is His glorious return as opposed to His imminent return which
are two separate events. At the rapture He comes in the air to
receive us to Himself, but at the glorious return He descends to the
Mount of Olives.
Now for a little chronology. The events in chapter 19 do not follow
the events of the seven bowls, but are explanations by the angel to
be inserted into the chronology where they have already been revealed
that they will happen. The nations will be gathered at the sixth
Now in the plain language of 19:11 there is a relationship between
the heavens having been opened and the ability to see a white horse.
But do we read into this verse everything implied above? We are in
the book titled "Revelation" which we could say is the throwing back
of the veil. Christ is revealing Himself to us at His second coming
in a way that He has not as yet.
In Rev. 19:19 we see that the beast, the kings of the earth, and
their armies are gathering together for the purpose of making war
against Him who sits on the horse and against His army. This plainly
tells us that before the gathering of the armies of the beast to the
place called Armageddon that Him who sits on the horse and His armies
are already physically present on the earth. Conclusion: Christ’s
glorious return resulting in His physical presence on the earth is
after the sixth seal but before the sixth bowl in the chronology of
I enjoyed your March 29th entry very much.http://www.prewrathrapture.com/ However, there is another
possibility which may simplify things even more so. You are correct
that the immediate context of the demonic spirits deceiving the
nations to be gathered to Armageddon must be taken into
consideration. Can we cross reference II Thess. 2:9-12 at this
point? I believe it is quite appropriate. Once folks have rejected
Christ this far into the day of the LORD, they will be deceived with
no hope of having their eyes opened to the truth. All your points
here concerning Christ’s coming as a thief and "to walk naked lest
they see his shame" are still completely relevant.
So within the context of demonic spirits deceiving the nations,
remember that Christ’s coming (at the sixth SEAL) will be as a
thief. If you have not received the love of the truth, but have
pleasure in unrighteousness, you will be deceived with no hope of
having your eyes opened. Do not be unprepared otherwise you too will
be summoned to your death at Armageddon. The reminder of Christ’s
coming as a thief this far into the chronology does not necessitate a
physical presence initiated after this point in the timeline.
I think it is quite appropriate in the midst of describing the
demonic deception which will summon the armies of the earth to
Armageddon, for Christ to remind us that – His coming will be as a
thief, to watch, to keep our garments, and to be prepared. Otherwise
our fate is described in II Thess. 2:9-12.
So I don’t see a coming at Armageddon, I see a going forth to meet the opposition at Armageddon. Because Christ is physically present on the earth, the term Parousia can apply. Alan is correct in pointing out that the Parousia is not simply one day long, but an extended period of time during which many events will happen. He also makes a good many points regarding the exegesis of the verse. So perhaps I am splitting hairs with Alan, but if PreWrathers are going to point out an inconsistency in PreTrib, they need to be uniform in their own presentation of the facts. There is NO inconsistency in Alan’s position so long as he maintains the premise of one coming at a specific point in the chronology during which many events will happen.
Have fun and stay busy – Luke 19:13
-The Orange Mailman
P.S. Keep reading Alan’s posts, everybody. He’s got good stuff.