Two subjects came together as one subject. While contending on the PreWrath only message board that at Armageddon, Jesus Christ does not come riding out of heaven, but instead is already back while the armies of the beast gather against Him, the subject of Revelation 16:15 was being posted on Alan Kurschner’s
Prewrath Rapture Dot Com. The subject is one that I take a strong stance on since I believe so many are misinformed concerning the timing of Christ’s glorious second coming.
Armageddon is not the time that Christ returns, He has returned before this time having already established His parousia on the earth. Armageddon is an event that happens in response to Christ’s return if you examine the scriptures. Here are the ones that I cite:
Revelaton 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Notice here that the purpose for the gathering of the beast and armies are to make war against Christ who is seated upon the horse. The scenario that I hear over and over again is that the beast is gathering together against Israel and Christ comes riding out of heaven just in the nick of time to save His chosen people. According to this passage, Christ’s presence on the earth is the reason for the gathering of the beast and armies.
Zechariah 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. 2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. 4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
Verse 4 here is usually taken completely out of context to show that Christ descends to the Mount of Olives at His return. Not so, read the text. He
GOES FORTH to the Mount of Olives since He is already present on the earth. He has already presented Himself to Israel as described in Zechariah chapter 12. Now after Israel has repented, the nations are gathering against Christ who GOES FORTH to meet them in battle. Actually, battle is not the right word. It really isn’t a battle at all. It’s more like the slaughter of Armageddon. To quote
Ron Wallace, "He speaks, they die." Not much of a battle if you ask me.
Psalm 2:2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,
Psalm 2 is a Messianic Psalm which should be studied in its context since is the time at which the Anointed One is proclaimed King on Zion. I use this brief quote to demonstrate the consistency that even in the Old Testament the kings of earth will gather together against the Anointed One, which is translated as Christ in the Greek, see Acts 4:26.
Psalm 110:2 The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies. 5 The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath.
Psalm 110 is another Messianic Psalm. Since it only has seven verses, studying it is not difficult. The text plainly states that Christ’s rule will begin IN THE MIDST of His enemies after which He will strike through kings in the day of His wrath.
Here is the error that I see in almost every position. It is the attempt to reconcile scripture by dividing Christ’s second coming into two second comings. I see it in the PreTrib position, the Mid-Trib position, and even in the PreWrath position. I was surprised to read in a fairly well written PreWrath book that the author believed that Christ would come to rapture the church at the sixth seal, then come again at Armageddon. This was after the author had argued against dividing Christ’s second coming up into two second comings like so many PreTribbers do. Sorry, but that’s a double standard. PostTrib and Historical PreMillennialism are the positions that remain uniform about not dividing Christ’s second coming into two separate comings. My hope is that PreWrathers will come to this understanding as well. Once Christ has returned, there will be a timeline during which many things will happen. It won’t all happen the minute He returns.
I read Alan’s post dated 3-29-07
here with great appreciation since this verse is used by PostTribbers to justify telescoping, which compromises the chronology of Revelation. Alan’s solution contains a good many insights, but in the end, he has adopted the idea that Christ’s coming at Armageddon is the solution. Based on the above evidence, we need not come to that conclusion. You can read Alan’s insights posted on the PreWrath Only Message board regarding Revelation 19
here, which were actually in response to my post. I took the liberty of responding to Alan’s post and included a slight critique of his post regarding Revelation 16:15 on Prewrath Rapture Dot Com. Here it is:
Hey Alan-
Yes, I have a few thoughts. First off, let’s start out with all the
presuppositions that I have heard over and over again from the
PreTrib view. The nations have gathered against Israel and are just
about to wipe Israel out. Jesus comes riding out of heaven on a
white horse just in the nick of time to save them. At this point in
time is His glorious return as opposed to His imminent return which
are two separate events. At the rapture He comes in the air to
receive us to Himself, but at the glorious return He descends to the
Mount of Olives.
Now for a little chronology. The events in chapter 19 do not follow
the events of the seven bowls, but are explanations by the angel to
be inserted into the chronology where they have already been revealed
that they will happen. The nations will be gathered at the sixth
bowl.
Now in the plain language of 19:11 there is a relationship between
the heavens having been opened and the ability to see a white horse.
But do we read into this verse everything implied above? We are in
the book titled "Revelation" which we could say is the throwing back
of the veil. Christ is revealing Himself to us at His second coming
in a way that He has not as yet.
In Rev. 19:19 we see that the beast, the kings of the earth, and
their armies are gathering together for the purpose of making war
against Him who sits on the horse and against His army. This plainly
tells us that before the gathering of the armies of the beast to the
place called Armageddon that Him who sits on the horse and His armies
are already physically present on the earth. Conclusion: Christ’s
glorious return resulting in His physical presence on the earth is
after the sixth seal but before the sixth bowl in the chronology of
Revelation.
I enjoyed your March 29th entry very much.
http://www.prewrathrapture.com/ However, there is another
possibility which may simplify things even more so. You are correct
that the immediate context of the demonic spirits deceiving the
nations to be gathered to Armageddon must be taken into
consideration. Can we cross reference II Thess. 2:9-12 at this
point? I believe it is quite appropriate. Once folks have rejected
Christ this far into the day of the LORD, they will be deceived with
no hope of having their eyes opened to the truth. All your points
here concerning Christ’s coming as a thief and "to walk naked lest
they see his shame" are still completely relevant.
So within the context of demonic spirits deceiving the nations,
remember that Christ’s coming (at the sixth SEAL) will be as a
thief. If you have not received the love of the truth, but have
pleasure in unrighteousness, you will be deceived with no hope of
having your eyes opened. Do not be unprepared otherwise you too will
be summoned to your death at Armageddon. The reminder of Christ’s
coming as a thief this far into the chronology does not necessitate a
physical presence initiated after this point in the timeline.
I think it is quite appropriate in the midst of describing the
demonic deception which will summon the armies of the earth to
Armageddon, for Christ to remind us that – His coming will be as a
thief, to watch, to keep our garments, and to be prepared. Otherwise
our fate is described in II Thess. 2:9-12.
So I don’t see a coming at Armageddon, I see a going forth to meet the opposition at Armageddon. Because Christ is physically present on the earth, the term Parousia can apply. Alan is correct in pointing out that the Parousia is not simply one day long, but an extended period of time during which many events will happen. He also makes a good many points regarding the exegesis of the verse. So perhaps I am splitting hairs with Alan, but if PreWrathers are going to point out an inconsistency in PreTrib, they need to be uniform in their own presentation of the facts. There is NO inconsistency in Alan’s position so long as he maintains the premise of one coming at a specific point in the chronology during which many events will happen.
Have fun and stay busy – Luke 19:13
-The Orange Mailman
P.S. Keep reading Alan’s posts, everybody. He’s got good stuff.
The Orange Mailman 
Hi Orange,
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
How do you deal with the "armies which were in heaven" following Jesus? This would imply He just left heaven; if that is where they are following Him from.
Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon. Rev 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
Why does Jesus announce He arrives as a thief in the verse just prior to the gathering at Armageddon? Why should those watching be blessed if He is already on earth? Notice also this is the 7th vial.
Rev 16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
Well into the wrath of God Jesus declares He will return as a thief. Blessed is he that watches. They are blessed because if they are watching they will see the signs of His soon return. He hasn\’t returned until after the 6th vial of the wrath of God. Jesus does return at Armageddon and not before it is clear here in Rev 16 as well as many other places.
Peace,Seeker
Hey Seeker-
What\’s up? That\’s a fair question. The thing that bothers me is that they are riding on horses. Are there horses in heaven? I don\’t see any scripture to support this. The answer must lie in the fact that the KJV text states, "the armies which were in heaven" with the words "which were" being italicized to show they are supplied, rendering the text "the armies in heaven". The ESV words it "the armies of heaven". I\’m no Greek scholar, but it seems that the notation of heaven here, is not to state their current whereabouts as we know they are following the KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. The point here would be to state that they are heavenly armies as opposed to earthly armies. These are the armies of heaven and not Israelites or any other nation on the earth.
So given the fact that at the time we see the heavenly vision, both the Messiah and armies who follow are sitting on horses, I don\’t see any reason to believe that they are in heaven at the time of the vision, only the fact that they are OF heaven. Either saints or angels works for me, although I lean toward saints unlike other PreWrathers. Heaven itself has broken forth to the realm of earth.
Here\’s a fair question for you. How do you deal with the four major scriptures I cited: Psalm 2, 110, Zechariah 14, and Revelation 19:19?
Have fun and stay busy – Luke 19:13
-The Orange Mailman
Hi Orange,
Here\’s a fair question for you. How do you deal with the four major scriptures I cited: Psalm 2, 110, Zechariah 14, and Revelation 19:19?
Rev 19:19 is the gathering at Armageddon. This gathering is also shown in Rev 16 as I have in the first post.
Rev 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon. Rev 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
In Rev 16:15 Jesus announces He comes as a thief; Blessed is he who is watching at this time. Jesus hasn’t arrived yet at this point. He gathers them to Armageddon, arrives to destroy them, and it is done.
Why are the nations gathering to do battle with God. Well first and foremost God draws them to this battle. The gathering at Armageddon is shown here in Rev 16 just prior to the 7th vial. This means that those gathering at Armageddon have already experienced the first 6 vials.
Rev 16:2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
This is sometime in the second 3 ½ years. All those who will later gather at Armageddon have already been vexed by these grievous sores.
Rev 16:8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire. Rev 16:9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
They blasphemed the name of God who had power over these plagues. Apparently they knew these plagues were from God. But they still would not repent.
Rev 16:10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain, Rev 16:11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.
Again they are aware that God is sending these plagues and still did not repent. They are probably starting to develop a grudge against God at this point.
Rev 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
The trumpets also occur during the last part of the 7 years.
Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. Rev 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven. Rev 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly. Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
The two witnesses testify until the end of the last 7 years near the time of the 7th trumpet. That means the previous 6 trumpets have already occurred by the time of Armageddon as well. You may not see it but Jesus returns at Armageddon to defeat the armies who have experienced 6 of both the vials and trumpets. They are fighting mad one might say…And then Jesus meets them…
2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
Peace,Seeker
Hey Seeker- Thanks for the response, I guess one out of four isn\’t bad, (heh, heh). However, you still have to deal with the exegesis I give. The nations do not gather against God in a general way, but against Christ specifically. The beast and armies are gathering together against the One who sits on the horse. That\’s Christ sitting on a horse somewhere on the earth, most likely in the plain of Megiddo. [course I believe they begin to gather against Jerusalem, but He "goes forth" to meet them at Armageddon.] All that you write above is true concerning those who endure the plagues of the trumpets and bowls. However, the LORD doesn\’t return at Armageddon as He is already back seated on a horse, surrounded by His followers, and being attacked by the beast and His armies. The fact that He is back is the reason why they assemble, see Psalm 2 and 110 and my explanation. This would go right along with your explanations of being "fighting mad" but here we see they know they can make war against the One who is causing them. Now that He\’s back, they can make war against Him.
Psalm 2 is clear that the kings of earth are gathering together against the Anointed One, Christ. There is a clear progression from the gathering of the nations against Christ, the declaration by God (the Father who is still sitting in the heavens) that His King, His Son has already been proclaimed as King in Zion. Then the nations (which are rebelling against the King who has been installed on Zion) are smashed, then the surviving nations and rulers are instructed to serve Him with fear leading us into the Messianic Kingdom established here on earth.
Psalm 110:1 is understood by Peter in his sermon at Pentecost to refer to the ascension of Christ into the heavens until such a time when the Father will decide that His enemies will be made His footstool. The following verses describe how this will happen. The LORD will send the rod of His strength (the Anointed One) out of Zion. He proclaims "Rule in the midst of your enemies". Here the LORD is on Zion and proclaimed to be ruling in the midst of enemies. "Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power". This tells us that the Israelite remnant will willingly follow Him into battle in the day that He is proclaimed King over Zion. Next the priesthood of this King is stated. He will be both King and Priest on His throne. It is after these events that He begins to strike through kings in the day of His wrath, fill places with dead bodies, and smash the heads of many countries. The progression is clear in these OT Psalms and this progression is reinforced in Revelation 19:19.
Hey, this is a lot better debate than I had with that other Post-Tribber.
Have fun and stay busy – Luke 19:13
-The Orange Mailman
Hi Orange,
Can\’t really post long posts here it cuts them off. Not quite finished with the topic at hand before moving into the other 3. I have more to ask you about. You say Jesus arrives somewhere in Israel hangs out while armies march into Jerusalem then goes to Jerusalem to slay them. Or that is what I think you are saying anyway. I am presuming that you think Jesus arrived and gathered all the saints in Matt 24 prior to Armageddon. Joel doesn\’t agree with that scenario.
Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. Joe 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.
Joel says the cosmic signs occur before what is known as the day of the Lord. The cosmic signs are also depicted in Matthew 24. These are the same cosmic signs Joel speaks of. Joel says that Jerusalem will be where there is deliverance following a verse referrencing the cosmic signs.
Joe 3:15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining. Joe 3:16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.
The sun/moon/stars will be darkened. The Lord also will roar out of Zion, utter His voice from Jerusalem. This happens just after the cosmic signs. He will be the hope of Israel when He utters His voice from Jerusalem. This occurs just after the cosmic signs in both Joel 2 and 3.
Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. Isa 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. Isa 13:11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible. Isa 13:12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir. Isa 13:13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.
Here God returns to destroy the sinners out of the land near the cosmic signs. The earth is moved from her place at this time. Babylon and the middle eastern attackers of Israel are destroyed at this time. Then we read on into Isaiah 14 as the story continues.
Isa 14:1 For the LORD will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land: and the strangers shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob. Isa 14:2 And the people shall take them, and bring them to their place: and the house of Israel shall possess them in the land of the LORD for servants and handmaids: and they shall take them captives, whose captives they were; and they shall rule over their oppressors. Isa 14:3 And it shall come to pass in the day that the LORD shall give thee rest from thy sorrow, and from thy fear, and from the hard bondage wherein thou wast made to serve, Isa 14:4 That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased! Isa 14:5 The LORD hath broken the staff of the wicked, and the sceptre of the rulers. Isa 14:6 He who smote the people in wrath with a continual stroke, he that ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted, and none hindereth. Isa 14:7 The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they break forth into singing.
The day of the Lord is the day Jesus returns just after the cosmic signs. The NT and OT both show God destroying evil near the cosmic signs.
Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
It\’s all the same day Darrin. God\’s wrath and the cosmic signs are together throughout the bible. Granted it is not a 24 hour day but the return in Matt 24 is the same as Joel 2-3 and all the other OT accounts of the day of the Lord. It is all as simple as Matthew 13.
Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Peace,Seeker
Hey Seeker- The funny thing is, I agree with just about everything you are saying. The only point I depart from your school of interpretation is that I believe the wrath is given over a period of time culminating at Armageddon. You admit that it is not a 24 hour day, but an extended period of time. When we look at passages like those you reference, we see what will happen when the LORD "shows up" so to speak. Other timelines tell us there will be events that intervene. So you can cite these references that say that the LORD will deal with the nations on what you are implying is His initial arrival, although I view it as His physical presence, but that doesn\’t prove that the wrath upon the nations is the first thing that happens.
The cosmic signs in Joel 2:31 is the time of the rapture. The gathering of the nations happens after this. Joel doesn\’t specifically mention the gathering of the saints, it has to be inserted where Matthew 24 and Revelation 6 place it. Christ arrives, then the nations gather against Him, not the other way around.
You will have to provide a superior interpretation of Revelation 19:19 explaining why the beast and armies are gathering together to make war against the One who is seated on the horse and against His army, as He has obviously already returned. But even if an Armageddon return is proved, it doesn\’t prove a post-wrath rapture. One of the initial events in the timeline when He "shows up" is the rapture and it precedes the wrath.
Have fun and stay busy – Luke 19:13
-The Orange Mailman
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
Jesus destroys the AC upon His arrival it says it plainly. The AC is destroyed by Jesus in Rev 19 these have to be at the same time, he is only destroyed once.
Rev 19:2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand. Rev 19:3 And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever. Rev 19:4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia. Rev 19:5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great. Rev 19:6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth. Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
Babylon has already been destroyed prior to Rev 19 in Rev 18 (Rev 19:2-3). For the marriage of the Lamb is come…We see Babylon destroyed here also.
Rev 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. Rev 14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. Rev 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. Rev 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
Babylon has fallen and saints are still being warned against the MOB. Jesus is not here at that point because the AC is destroyed by the brightness of His coming. This point is the same point in time as Rev 19:3 when it is said Babylon\’s smoke rises up forever. This is what happens when Jesus is revealed from heaven.
2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
This all leads us back to Rev 19 where we see Jesus departing from heaven to destroy the AC upon His arrival.
Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
This is the sequence of harvesting.
Mat 13:27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? Mat 13:28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? Mat 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
And it doesn\’t get any simpler than this 😉
Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Peace,Seeker
Hi Orange,
"You will have to provide a superior interpretation of Revelation 19:19 explaining why the beast and armies are gathering together to make war against the One who is seated on the horse and against His army, as He has obviously already returned. But even if an Armageddon return is proved, it doesn\’t prove a post-wrath rapture. One of the initial events in the timeline when He "shows up" is the rapture and it precedes the wrath."
I realize we are almost identical in views except for minor issues. In essence we believe in the same time sequence we just disagree on who leaves first. We know for certain that the trumpet judgements have began at least 5 months before the 7th trumpet.
Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. Rev 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. Rev 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will. Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
The two witnesses testify for 3 1/2 years and then are killed. The 7th trumpet is soon after this, which marks the end of the last 7 years. The plagues they smite the earth with are very likely the same as some of the trumpet and/or vial judgements.
Rev 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. Rev 9:2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. Rev 9:3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. Rev 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. Rev 9:5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
This particular trumpet judgement lasts for 5 months. This has to overlap with the ministry of the two witnesses. They are witnesses chosen by the Lord and are testifying during the 5th trumpet. They will have to know it is from God at the very least. I strongly suspect they have a hand in it.
Rev 16:12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared. Rev 16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. Rev 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
The 6th vial takes place around the time of Armageddon. Five have occured prior to that again overlaping with the two witnesses in the last 3 1/2 years. Jesus says He is coming as a thief around the time of Armageddon. How much clearer does it get? How can He arrive as a thief if He is already here?
God\’s wrath, as in trumpet/vial judgments, begins most probably during the last 3 1/2 years. I don\’t think it would be sooner as the AC only has power over the saints for 3 1/2 years. The wrath is God\’s payback one could say. Many of the judgments concern the AC. He only has power starting from the 3 1/2 year mark. My theory is that the two witnesses pronounce the judgments over the 3 1/2 year period, very much like Moses in Egypt.
The world hates the two witnesses and the God they serve who is sending these plagues upon them. No one can defeat the two witnesses. Imagine the rage in the general\’s eyes over that. Finally the beast overcomes them near the end of his reign. His 3 1/2 years have expired and Jesus returns to defeat him.
Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. Rev 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
The AC continues to kill saints until the time comes for the saints to possess the kingdom. The cosmic signs occur late in the last 7 years literally just before Jesus arrives. The cosmic signs in the OT are connected to God\’s wrath. Immediately after the tribulation of those days the cosmic signs occur. The tribulation last for 3 1/2 years; the time alotted for the AC to have power over the saints. And Matthew 13 plainly states the the wicked are taken first in two seperate parables. How can the AC have power over the saints when Jesus is present on earth?
(cont.)…….
Your response is certainly worthy of debate, however, the text of Revelation 19:19 and my explanation remains untouched by yourself. So now, Seeker, in order, here are some responses.
II Thess. 2:8 Not upon arrival, at His parousia, there is a difference. Parousia means physical presence over an extended period of time initiated by a coming. I\’ve got a great chapter in Reese\’s book The Approaching Advent of Christ that I will summarize one of these days on my blog. Just to demonstrate, it\’s the exact same word used of the antichrist in II Thess. 2:9. It can\’t mean arrival in the way that you are using it. Antichrist\’s lying wonders will occur over a period of time during which he is physically present on the earth. So no, it doesn\’t say arrival. It\’s a different word with a different meaning in the Greek which is properly translated coming or presence. Look it up.
Revelation 19:2-7 Your Revelation chronology concerning Babylon isn\’t going to affect my views here. The strict chronology of the 42 months ends at the seventh bowl. Then the angel takes John on a whirlwind tour explaining certain events that happened within that chronology. The destruction of Babylon must be inserted where it was previously revealed that it occurred. It occurs in two phases, once at the initial return of Christ in Revelation 14, where she is burnt by fire by the ten kings, then the second phase is a final destruction whereby she is cast into the sea at the seventh bowl by the angel.
Rev. 14:7-13 But Christ arrives in the clouds immediately after this set of verses, reaps the earth to Himself, then casts what is left into the time of His wrath as described in the bowls. Tribulation, rapture, then wrath.
II Thess. 1:7-10 No, this leads us back to the sixth seal which happens at the close of the great tribulation just before the wrath is poured out. Those who had suffered will now have vengeance enacted on their behalf. That\’s what Rev. 8:1-6 is really about. That\’s why the nations are so terrified at 6:15-17, because they have been persecuting His bride and will now have the wrath poured out on them. But before that happens, the multitude will come out of the great tribulation as described in 7:9-17 and be before the throne of God.
Rev. 19:11-15 Again, the text does not state that Jesus is leaving heaven. This is a heavenly vision of Christ as warrior at Armageddon. He is on a physical horse just like His followers are on physical horses. This is the best interpretation. The King of Zion fulfilled the prophecy of riding on the foal of a donkey by riding on a literal donkey. He will fulfill this prophecy by riding a literal white horse into battle at the slaughter of Armageddon. Verse 19 shows that He has already "arrived" on the earth establishing His parousia, since the armies of the antichrist are specifically gathering together against Christ, not just generally against God.
Two witnesses, fifth trumpet, sixth bowl = Yes, yes, and yes, except for this statement "Jesus says He is coming as a thief around the time of Armageddon." That is not what the text states. It states He is coming as a thief. No timing is here given. I direct you to my initial post which explains why the warning of His coming is here in this place even though in the chronology He has already "arrived".
Rev. 13:5-7 The great tribulation does not last for 42 months; the entire time the antichrist has power is 42 months, including the time of his destruction as explained during the bowls. I have fallen out of favor with the classic PreWrath position over this, but that\’s what the scripture says. They want to "bump" the bowls to the 30 days following the 42 months, but you can\’t do it. The text does not say that the beast has power over the saints for 42 months. It says
KJV …power was given unto him to continue forty and two months
NKJV …he was given authority to continue for forty-two months
ESV …it was allowed to exercise authority for forty-two months
For a portion of his time, he is allowed to overcome the saints. But since we know the reaping of the righteous occurs at Rev. 14:14-16, followed by the wrath which is poured out upon the beast and his kingdom, we know that the seventh bowl will take us to Armageddon and the end of Daniel\’s seventieth week. We also know that the saints will not be here for the bowls as evidence by the multitude in 15:2-4, and no trace of them on the earth during the bowls, which I know is an argument from silence, but considering the rest of the evidence, it supports the best rapture theory out there: The PreWrath Rapture.
The antichrist does NOT continue to have power over the saints with Jesus present on the earth. That power is cut short otherwise no believing flesh would be saved. Concerning your proof text of Matthew 13 that seems to keep coming up, the subject here is the kingdom of heaven and its existence here on the earth. Wheat mingled with tares is the current state of affairs, not just on the earth, but in God\’s plan for His kingdom. Tares (fakers) are mixed in with the real deal. The time of the great tribulation is the time when the "men are separated from the boys", or perhaps, the fakers are weeded out of the garden. No one is going to die for the God of Israel unless they have the work of Christ in their hearts. The gathering of the tares into bundles in order that they might be burned will be evidenced during the great tribulation.
The Son of Man will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, then the righteous will shine forth in the kingdom of their Father. This is speaking of the inheritance of the saints in the Kingdom after the wrath is over. The illustration of Noah is a good one. Noah gets on the boat, the wrath is poured out, ungodly are struck dead, the chosen ones get off the boat and inherit the new earth. In the same way, the wrath is PreWrath while maintaining the integrity of the texts that you are defending here. The church is raptured, the wrath is poured out, ungodly are struck dead (which is the cleansing of the earth), then the righteous shine forth like the sun.
So I don\’t believe every single unsaved person will be struck dead during the wrath based on the parable of the wheat and the tares. This is the weeding of the kingdom of heaven. The kingdom of heaven will be established here on earth at His coming at the end of the age. Before the kingdom can come, His will must be done on earth as it is in heaven. I\’m getting off track here. Anyway…
Have fun and stay busy – Luke 19:13
-The Orange Mailman
P.S. …rage in the general\’s eyes… ???
Hi Orange,
It is not that I am avoiding 19:19 I am explaining it with the context of Rev 19. Rev 19:19 poses no problem to me as I have Jesus returning there to defeat the AC. Jesus is clearly there and defeats the AC. Daniel also tells us about the AC’s 3 ½ year reign of power.
Dan 7:16 I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things. Dan 7:17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth. Dan 7:18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever. Dan 7:19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet; Dan 7:20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows. Dan 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; Dan 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom. Dan 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces. Dan 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings. Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. Dan 7:26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end. Dan 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.
The same horn made war with the saints and prevailed against them until the Ancient of days came and the saints possessed the kingdom. They will be given into his hands for a time and times and a dividing of time (3 1/2 years). We know when his tribulation starts.
Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect\’s sake those days shall be shortened.
After they witness the AOD that Daniel spoke of they are to flee for the worst tribulation ever is about to commence. This is the start of the AC’s allotted 3 ½ years. The AOD occurs at the midpoint of the last 7 years (Dan 9:27). This takes us to the end of the last 7 years for the timing of Dan 7:22. The AC begins his persecution at year 3.5 and it ends at year 7 for it to be 3 ½ years in length as the bible says it is.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Immediately after the tribulation, that we just established is 3 ½ years in length, we see the cosmic signs. This places the cosmic signs 3 ½ years after the AOD at the end of the 3 ½ year tribulation. This gets us to the end of year 7 for the cosmic signs and the return of Jesus after the cosmic signs.
Peace,Seeker
Hi Orange,
I will respond to the issues you raise as I get time. Please understand at this time of year I am very busy and have little time to devote to debate. I enjoy our discussions as you know. Just kind of giving you an idea where I am coming from first. But I\’ll get around to addressing your issues. Rage in the general\’s eyes was meant like…. think about the worlds armies trying to defeat the two witnesses. Everyone that tries to take them out gets torched. These two witnesses have been tormenting the world for 3 1/2 years dispencing plagues as they see fit and no one can do a thing about it. Would cause a general fits I would think.
The armies go to Jerusalem where the two witnesses are preaching from. The AC finally defeats them just as Jesus returns to defeat him. Remember every eye will see Jesus when He arrives.
Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
All kindreds wail when they see Jesus.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
All tribes of the earth mourn when they see Jesus
Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? .
This is why they are wailing and mourning they know God\’s wrath is on its way via Jesus and here is where and when He delivers it.
2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
Anyway my next post I\’ll address some of the things you bring up. Just trying to post my entire perspective on why I see it the way I do.
Peace,
Seeker
Hi Orange,
“II Thess. 2:8 Not upon arrival, at His parousia, there is a difference. Parousia means physical presence over an extended period of time initiated by a coming. I\’ve got a great chapter in Reese\’s book The Approaching Advent of Christ that I will summarize one of these days on my blog. Just to demonstrate, it\’s the exact same word used of the antichrist in II Thess. 2:9. It can\’t mean arrival in the way that you are using it. Antichrist\’s lying wonders will occur over a period of time during which he is physically present on the earth. So no, it doesn\’t say arrival. It\’s a different word with a different meaning in the Greek which is properly translated coming or presence. Look it up.”
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
They both say the same thing. Jesus destroys the AC at His coming. The AC at his coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs…When Jesus arrives He destroys the AC. When the AC arrives it is with power…etc. And then shall that Wicked be revealed. What happens when he is revealed? Isn’t this when he arrives on the world scene? Now here is the Strong’s definition for “coming" used in these two verses.
G3952παρουσίαparousiapar-oo-see\’-ahFrom the present participle of G3918; a being near, that is, advent (often, return; specifically of Christ to punish Jerusalem, or finally the wicked); (by implication) physical aspect: – coming, presence.
It means the same as advent. Coming, presence both mean being here or arriving; I don’t see the point you are trying to make. The word means basically the same as arrival in both instances. When Jesus arrives He destroys the AC as shown in Rev 19. When someone is coming they are on their way here. When they get here they have arrived. The moment they get here is their arrival.
Jesus destroys the AC on planet earth He would have had to arrive to do that. I have provided scripture showing Jesus destroying the AC by the brightness of His coming what scripture do you have specifically showing Jesus arriving somehow in secret to the sinners?
Peace,Seeker
Hey Seeker- I know how to be patient. I\’ll take it as it comes. I just haven\’t seen an explanation of why Revelation 19:19 states that the antichrist and armies are gathering together against the LORD Jesus if He doesn’t arrive until after they gather. So it’s not "Jesus returning to defeat the antichrist", it’s the antichrist advancing on an already present LORD Jesus.
I deal with the length of the great tribulation in my newest post. It doesn’t run its full course; it is cut short, Matthew 24:22. The coming of Christ happens at a day that no man knows, Matthew 24:36. There is no way to number the days of the antichrist and figure out when the LORD Jesus will come. He will cut short the days of the great tribulation, but it will occur according to the times, seasons, and in the sequence that He has foretold. So the great tribulation is not 3 ½ years in length. It will be slightly shorter than that.
"Rage in the general’s eyes" was a thought provoking phrase to me. I was pretty sure you were using the term "general" for the antichrist but I wanted some clarification. I understand the imagery you are using and I think it’s descriptive of the virulence that will erupt at the exasperation of being unable to touch the two witnesses.
I hope the meaning of parousia is cleared up in my newest post. The application that you have concerning the destruction of antichrist is what I am trying to deal with. Christ will come and be present on the earth. It is during this presence that He will destroy the antichrist. This does not mean, according to the correct usage of the word, that Christ will destroy antichrist the moment He arrives. It simply means He will destroy antichrist during His parousia, physical presence on the earth. The timeline for antichrist’s destruction is laid out in the book of Revelation. A simple reading of Rev. 12-16 gives us the sequence:
#1- Antichrist begins his rule at midpoint.
#2- Great Tribulation.
#3- 144,000 are following Christ.
#4- The righteous are reaped from the earth by the Son of Man, Jesus.
#5- Those who remain are thrown into the winepress (here begins the wrath).
#6- The bowls (God’s wrath) are poured out upon the beast and his followers, which includes:
The sixth bowl gathering of armies which we later find out are gathering together against an already present King of Kings.
The seventh bowl which includes the completion of God’s plan, Armageddon, and the destruction of antichrist. Now we are at the end of Daniel’s seventieth week.
No secret coming for sinners here. I believe when Christ is revealed that it will be for all to see. Rest is promised for those who have been going through the great tribulation, but vengeance for those who have been persecuting the church, II Thess. 1:6-10. Part of that vengeance will be the deception to gather together against Christ to try to defeat Him after He returns. They advance against Him, but He slaughters them as they advance. This timeline is laid out in Joel 3, Psalm 2, Psalm 110, Zechariah 14, and even Revelation 19:19.
Have fun and stay busy – Luke 19:13
The Orange Mailman
Hi Orange,
"Hey Seeker- I know how to be patient. I\’ll take it as it comes. I just haven\’t seen an explanation of why Revelation 19:19 states that the antichrist and armies are gathering together against the LORD Jesus if He doesn’t arrive until after they gather. So it’s not "Jesus returning to defeat the antichrist", it’s the antichrist advancing on an already present LORD Jesus."
Scripture shows Jesus gathering them and then arriving as a thief.
Rev 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Peace,
Seeker
Hey sorry I was trying to add spaces and somehow it just posted you can delete it here is a readable version…lol
Hi Orange,
Was still thinking about my last post and ran into this. 2 Peter 3 tells exactly how it will happen.
2Pe 3:1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance: 2Pe 3:2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
Peter is reminding them of things they should already know, words which were spoken by the holy prophets and taught by the apostles of Christ.
2Pe 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 2Pe 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
This tells us Peter is referring to the second coming of Christ…”where is the promise of his coming”.
2Pe 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 2Pe 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
Here we learn that the universe that we know and the planet we live on are destined to burn on the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. I am fairly certain you agree as I do with what is said here. There is a day when God unleashes His wrath on an ungodly world. So first we see scoffers asking when Jesus is going to keep His promise and return. The world they live in looks to be as normal as always.
Peter makes a direct comparison to the flood here. Jesus does also in Matthew 24 as you are aware. As it was in the days of Noah so it will be in the days of the return of Christ. They knew not until the flood came and took them all away. This is the same thing Peter is saying here.
2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
I believe Peter understood it would be several 1,000 years when he wrote this. We know that he is still referring to Jesus returning by this…” The Lord is not slack concerning his promise”
The day Jesus fulfills His promise and returns will come as a thief in the night. The heavens will pass away and the earth will be burned up. Peter is still referring to the day Jesus returns when he uses this description. He uses the thief analogy just as Rev 16 does. Peter connects the return of Jesus to the day of the Lord of the OT here in 2Peter3. Again consistent with my view of Jesus returning to dispense wrath and then gather us.
1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. 1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. 1Th 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. 1Th 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. 1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
They have no need to know the times and seasons for the day of Jesus’s return will come as a thief in the night. Sudden destruction comes upon the sinners on the day Jesus returns. We just as Noah will experience the wrath but not be affected by it. And again we see it spelled out in Rev 6.
Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
The scriptures all agree. No need to post 2Th1 again but it says the same thing. Rev 19 shows Jesus leaving heaven and destroying the AC at Armageddon. Rev 16 shows the gathering for Armageddon prior to Jesus returning as a thief. They knew not till the flood came and took them away so shall it be….
Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Peace,Seeker
Hey Seeker- I\’m sure by now that you realize I have a little different take on this. First off, I guess we are back full circle to Revelation 16:15. In my now famous post above (heh heh) I explain why the coming is described as a thief even though he has already arrived. It is the same context as I Thess. 5 which you cite. He comes as a thief only to the unsaved or unprepared. His coming will not overtake believers as a thief in the night. Since they are children of the light they are not in spiritual darkness. The reason why believers have no need for Paul to write to them concerning the times and seasons is due to the fact that they were already aware of Paul\’s teachings on the matter, which he rehearses afresh for them. It is when the cry of peace and safety is given that sudden destruction will come upon them. So the following statement is taking two unrelated points in the text and trying to tie them together.
Seeker writes – "They have no need to know the times and seasons for the day of Jesus’s return will come as a thief in the night."
The coming as a thief is for unbelievers, not for believers. So when the bowls are being poured out, we have the deception employed by Satan that will contribute to the gathering of the nations to Armageddon. The reminder here is that if you are not prepared for His coming by walking in the light, you too will be deceived into gathering together against Christ on that awful day. So the admonition that Christ will come as a thief at that point in the chronology does not necessitate His coming after that point. He has already come in the clouds back in Revelation 14:14-16 cf. Acts 1:9-11, Rev. 1:7. Here is where we apply II Thess. 2:9-12. If you do not believe on Christ while you still have a chance, you will be summoned by deceptive means to your doom on that day.
So "blessed is he that watcheth" since they will not be overtaken as a thief when He comes in the clouds in Rev. 14 and therefore will not be deceived in Revlation 16:15 nor slaughtered at the seventh bowl, also known as Armageddon.
As far as Noah, there are so many different takes on that it is hard to be dogmatic one way or the other sometimes. Does Noah typify the church or Israel? I lean toward Noah being typical of Israel (preserved through the wrath) while Lot is typical of the church (removed from the wrath). The passage in II Peter 3 has no concrete bearing on the gathering, catching up, resurrection, or the translation of the saints. The emphasis is on the destruction of the heavens and the earth.
Back to the main subject here. While antichrist and company are deceived, the motivation in their minds is to gather together against the Messiah to destroy Him, Psalm 2. How can antichrist be gathering against someone who isn\’t even here? And how can the decree be for Messiah to rule in the midst of His enemies before He destroys them, Psalm 110? The destruction there of striking through kings in the day of His wrath can only be Armageddon.
Have fun and stay busy – Luke 19:13
-The Orange Mailman
The cosmic signs are mentioned in association with the day of the Lord. At that time whosoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. This is expressly a group of sinners by definition; as only sinners can be saved. So sometime after the cosmic signs men can still be saved. We know from Matt 24 the cosmic signs occur just before Jesus arrives to gather the elect.
Joe 3:14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision. Joe 3:15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining. Joe 3:16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.
-Day of the Lord-sun and moon darkened-The Lord roaring out of Jerusalem-heavens and earth will shake but the Lord is the strength of Israel
Here again the day of the Lord directly associated with the return of Jesus.
Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. Isa 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. Isa 13:11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible. Isa 13:12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir. Isa 13:13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.
Zec 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Zec 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. Zec 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. Zec 14:6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark: Zec 14:7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light. Zec 14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. Zec 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
Again Jesus gathers armies against Israel, then fights against those armies for Israel, and in that day His feet stand on the mount of Olives.
Act 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. Act 1:10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. Act 1:12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day\’s journey.
Jesus ascending up into heaven from the mount of Olives and the angels say that is how He will return. Zec 14 shows this on the day of His arrival. Jesus descends from heaven down to the mount of Olives (Jerusalem). Jerusalem is the Lord\’s landing zone. He does not march on Jerusalem He utters His voice from Jerusalem after descending from heaven to the mount of Olives.
Peace,Seeker
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Hi Orange,
The reason we keep going in circles is because of the amount of verses that say Jesus destroys evil and then gathers us…lol. I should count them but there are at least 10 of them I would think. I have a couple of problems with Jesus being able to come as a thief after we have been raptured. Well I don\’t personally have a problem with it but scripture does. In order for Jesus to arrive as a thief for the sinners somehow they missed this.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
So is it your contention that Satan somehow deceives them when they see the sun/moon/stars go dark? How would you explain the next verse?
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
So we have the cosmic signs and then ALL the tribes of earth mourn and they shall SEE the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Jesus hasn\’t arrived yet they see the sign of the Son of man in heaven. And ALL tribes of earth mourn. These cannot be believers mourning here. A believer will be jumping for joy when they see the sun go dark, why?
Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Luk 21:26 Men\’s hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Their redemption is soon after the cosmic signs but not yet. They haven\’t been raptured yet that happens in Matt 24:31.
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
The angels are gathering the elect. Why would the elect be mourning when they see Jesus arriving in the clouds? They wouldn\’t be, only the sinners would mourn seeing Jesus arriving. Here in Matthew 24 we see two distinct groups seeing Jesus at the same time.
Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
Also Rev 1:7 is clearly referring to when Jesus arrives with the clouds. Every eye will see Him. And (notice again) All kindreds of the earth shall WAIL because of Him. Who is wailing here and why would they be wailing seeing Jesus arriving with the clouds?
Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Seeing a pattern yet Orange? There are always two groups that see Jesus arriving.
2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
Notice both groups are here as well. They are also present in Matt 13. Jesus deals with them at the same time during the one and only return to earth. Matt 13 tells us which order they are dealt with. In the OT the pattern is the same. There is always a group invading Israel (sinners), they are defeated by the Lord, and then Israel is gathered to Him. The cosmic signs are also in these scenario\’s from the OT.
Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. Joe 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.
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Hey Seeker- In my view, some of your points don’t prove your point. They could be true in just about any scenario. Other points are more direct. So some I may seem to brush under the rug. That’s because I don’t really "feel the fury" of your argument, if you know what I mean. No offense intended, that\’s just the way I see it.
Yes, folks can call on the name of the LORD at the cosmic signs. They can also call on the name of the LORD before and after the cosmic signs. The invitation is specifically given as the signs are manifested. For me, it seems like it is the final call. The signs are given for all the world to see. The invitation is open, but not for long. Shortly after initiating the cosmic signs, Christ will gather the saints (His elect) then pour out His wrath. Anyone can call on His name during that time.
You are quoting from Zechariah 14 quite a bit. Zechariah 12-14 is one oracle. You can’t begin in chapter 14, you must go back to chapter 12. Christ does not return in chapter 14. He has already appeared to repentant Israel in chapter 12. Upon their repentance God has begun to act on their behalf (12:4) initially delivering the tents of Judah first (12:7), then the house of Jerusalem shortly after that (12:8). They will look upon Him whom they have pierced – we know this is Christ, John 19:37. The nations are gathered against an already returned Christ at this time. After they are gathered against Christ, He destroys them. If Israel has repented, then the fullness of the Gentiles has come in, therefore the church has completed its task in provoking Israel to jealousy, Romans 11:11-13, 25-27. This provides the link to Revelation 7 showing the restoration of the Israelite remnant in connection with the church coming out of the great tribulation CLEARLY BEFORE GOD’S WRATH as chapter 7 is located in the sequence after the great tribulation and before the wrath contained in the trumpets.
Jesus doesn’t come as a thief after the rapture, He comes as a thief AT the rapture. It is not a surprise visit. It is a question of being prepared or unprepared as every scripture which talks about the coming as a thief will attest to. Unbelievers will be unprepared for His coming so to them it will be as a thief. Believers will be completely prepared so to them it will not be as a thief. That’s what I Thess. 5:1-11 is saying. But it’s the same coming with two different reactions.
At the cosmic signs, the nations mourn, but the elect are gathered. The elect refers to the church, not the nations. This is the usage of it the other two times in the Olivet Discourse as well and throughout the entire NT as far as I know. One clear example of how this only applies to "His" elect, that is, those who belong to God, is to cross-reference Luke 18:7. In the epistles it was carried over and became synonymous with the church.
Perhaps I have been unclear about the deception Satan will employ during his parousia, or presence, which precedes the parousia/presence of Messiah. Satan will perform miracles through the beast and false prophet (both types of antichrists) during the great tribulation. At the onset the beast is miraculously healed that all the world wonders after him. The false prophets initiates the mark of the beast by performing one of the greatest miracles of all time. This results in demonic deception causing the world to wonder and follow them.
But there will be a specific deception at the sixth trumpet and sixth bowl (which are concurrent) which will deceive the nations into gathering together against an already present (parousia) Messiah. These who are deceived fell under the power of Satan’s deception during the great tribulation as they chose sides, took the mark, denied Christ, etc. They REMAIN under Satan’s authority and power throughout the remainder of Daniel’s seventieth week after Christ’s returns cutting short the great tribulation. They REMAIN under the deception of the beast and false prophet even while the wrath is being poured out upon them. That is why it says so many times that they did not repent. II Thess. 2 explains that this is their very damnation. They didn’t believe the truth, they were deceived, they had pleasure in unrighteousness, so they will be damned. So the beast and false prophet are able to deceive them after Christ returns into gathering together against the LORD and against His Messiah, Psalm 2.
I don’t have a problem with two groups seeing Jesus when He arrives. Both groups see Him, sinners mourn, saints are gathered, then the wrath is poured out. What’s the problem?
Do you have any comments on Revelation 7 which describes the restoration of the Israelite remnant in conjunction with the church coming out of the great tribulation squarely placed after the great tribulation and before the wrath?
Have fun and stay busy – Luke 19:13
Hi Orange,
Do I bore you with my petty little arguments…rofl…just joking I am still dueling with jabs. Hey I am glad you brought up Zec 12 it says the same thing as Zec 14 just two different accounts of the same story.
Zec 12:3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.
Zec 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
These verses say the same thing.
Zec 12:6 In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem.
Zec 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
In that day when Jesus arrives in Zec 12 all the nations that have gathered against Jerusalem will be destroyed. So is there another gathering of nations after this group that has been destroyed by Jesus returning in Zec 12?
Zec 12:9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. Zec 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
Zec 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
You can’t see the similarity in these?
Zec 13:1 In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.
What day is “that day” in Zec 13:1? It can only be referring to the day spoken of in Zec 12.
Zec 13:9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.
After they have been refined “through” the fire, the Lord says they are His people and they say He is their God. So you are saying God allows another gathering against Israel after these things? I think not….they are the same event just told in a slightly different manner.
Peace,Seeker
Hi Orange,
"Do you have any comments on Revelation 7 which describes the restoration of the Israelite remnant in conjunction with the church coming out of the great tribulation squarely placed after the great tribulation and before the wrath?"
Rev 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
Here is the first verse of Rev 7. Can I ask you after what things? What are the "these things" the first verse in chapter 7 is referring to?
Peace,Seeker
Hi Orange,
"I don’t have a problem with two groups seeing Jesus when He arrives. Both groups see Him, sinners mourn, saints are gathered, then the wrath is poured out. What’s the problem?"
The problem is it doesn\’t match this.
Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
There is no mention of any elect from the cosmic signs down to the wrath. The saints are mentioned in the following chapter. If this was the only example where that was the case I would give the argument to you but there are multiple examples that don\’t match what you claim.
Matt 13 has 2 examples saying the sinners are gathered first. 2Th1 shows Jesus being revealed from heaven in flaming fire taking vengence on those that don\’t know the Lord. Isaiah 13 shows God returning to remove sinners from the land and then Israel gathered to Him. Joel 2 & 3 show nations gathered against Israel, God defeating them and then gathering His people. Ezekiel 38-39 shows an attack on Israel where God defeats Israel\’s enemies and then gathers Israel to Himself. Zephaniah 1-3 shows the same scenario as does all other accounts of God\’s wrath in the bible.
The story is the same isn\’t that what we should actually expect anyway? Is not the Word of God truth? If God only dispences His wrath one time on sinners and this is described in let\’s say 10 books, wouldn\’t we expect them all to agree with one another concerning God\’s wrath? Or are they all digfferent wraths where God destroys sinners and gathers Israel to Himself. Sometimes we must insert a bit of common sense when forming our opinions. It is simple as I keep trying to tell you. They all say the same thing. They all describe the end of the world and the removal of sin. They have to agree because there is only one time when God returns to destroy the sinners and gather Israel.
Mat 13:27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? Mat 13:28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? Mat 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
Peace,Seeker
Hey Seeker- There are different ways to view Zechariah 12-14. You point out one way to view it, but there is another way. There are similarities, but there are subtle differences as well. The events of chapter 12 only deal with an initial rescue of Judah and Jerusalem. The intent to destroy all nations that come against Jerusalem is given in verses 3 and 9, but the description of what happens is a simply rescue of Israel under fire. The spirit is poured out upon Israel as a fountain is opened in Israel at that time as they look upon Him whom they have pierced. 13:2-5 is an overview of the spiritual Messianic cleanup about to take place. Verse 6 I still maintain refers back to the One who was pierced. Verses 7-9 are retrospective to what Israel has already gone through to bring them to the point of repentance. Israel’s leader will be smitten as Israel is scattered. As they enter the time of Jacob’s trouble (the great tribulation) two thirds die, but one third remain as Israel is brought through the fire. This one third remnant is who calls on the name of the LORD.
Then we come to chapter 14. The initial rescue is again distinguished from the destruction of all nations that come against Jerusalem. There is some overlap, but there are differences as well. The LORD initially rescues Jerusalem as half of the city goes into battle. At this point, remember that He has already rescued the tents of Judah. Then after the rescue of Judah, then Jerusalem, THEN He goes forth to stand upon the Mount of Olives to do battle against all nations. This is the time when they will be drawn to the place called Armageddon. He will meet them there – "the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee" – and destroy them all. This coming is not from heaven to earth. He has presented Himself to Israel at their repentance. He has rescued Judah. He has rescued Jerusalem. Now He goes forth to battle. Not that He hasn’t already rescued, it’s just that now He has secured His people and is intent on destroying those who have been gathered to Armageddon.
This agrees with Joel 2 and 3 which shows a northern army advancing on Jerusalem, Joel 2:1-11. At the repentance of Israel, 2:12-17, God begins to act on behalf of His people, 2:18-19. He removes the northern army, 2:20. But the destruction of all nations does not begin until they gather together against Him later. So the initial rescue must not be confused with the gathering of all nations which will result in their destruction. There is some overlap in the descriptions, but we can separate the two.
As far as Revelation chronology, armies are not amassed until the sixth trumpet or sixth bowl which occur in the same time frame. This is the sixth phase of God’s wrath all of which occurs after the resurrection/rapture.
Just to be blunt, the first part of your response on 5-3-07 makes absolutely no sense to me. You say that the elect are not mentioned from the cosmic signs down to the wrath, yet in Matthew 24:29-31 the elect are right there. In Revelation 6-7, the elect are coming out of the great tribulation at the opening of the sixth seal. The seventh seal has yet to be opened so to insert the wrath into the chronology before the elect come out of the great tribulation is to do a grievous error to the context.
But as far as the gathering of Israel being confused with the gathering of the church, I have already mentioned on another occasion that the OT deals with these two gatherings in a completely separate way. Isaiah 26:19-21 is the resurrection of the righteous and the gathering of them behind closed doors before the LORD comes out of His place to pour out His wrath. Isaiah 27:12-13 is the regathering of Israel out of every corner of the earth into the promised land after the wrath and after the iniquity of Jacob has been purged, 27:9. This "recovering of the remnant" is also described in Isaiah 11:11-16 and Zechariah 10:8-12. Funny thing about this is that the physical landscape is changed to allow the redeemed to return physically into the promised land. There are special highways for them to travel on. This is why we can clearly see that Isaiah 35:8-10 and 51:11 are also speaking of the regathering of Israel into the promised land, not the resurrection/rapture of the church into the New Jerusalem. These are PreMillennial distinctives which show that there will be a physical 1000 year kingdom during which time Israel will be a literal nation, but the church will reign with Christ from the New Jerusalem.
So you have a point about a regathering being after the wrath, it’s just the wrong regathering you are referring to. The gathering of Noah to the ark and Lot out of Sodom happened before the wrath and these are the gatherings that Christ used as "types" for the deliverance of the church. I’m sure you’ve read my post on Luke 17. Any comments?
Have fun and stay busy – Luke 19:13
-The Orange Mailman
P.S. I’m not getting tired of debating the most important doctrines in the whole Bible. Worthy opponents are getting scarcer and scarcer.
Hi Orange,
"Just to be blunt, the first part of your response on 5-3-07 makes absolutely no sense to me. You say that the elect are not mentioned from the cosmic signs down to the wrath,"
Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Cosmic signs
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Wrath
Show me where the elect are gathered between the cosmic signs and wrath in Rev 6.
Peace,Seeker
Hi Orange,
You sure are going to great measures not to see what scripture really says. I seem to notice a bit of arrogance in your posts lately….Not the Orange I remember but we all change. Not to worry, I should knock that out of you by the time we are finished here….lol. Well as you know you have a worthy opponent now. Your view has you blinded to the very scripture you cite. Let’s look at what Joel 2 says compared to your summary of it.
“This agrees with Joel 2 and 3 which shows a northern army advancing on Jerusalem, Joel 2:1-11”
Joel 2:1-11 does talk about the northern army first. They are not advancing though they are in Jerusalem.
Joe 2:1 Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;
Where is the alarm being sounded? ….Jerusalem.
Joe 2:2 A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.
Here is a clear description of the “day of the Lord” spoken of in the OT. So the alarm is being sounded very near the day of the Lord in Jerusalem when God returns to dispense His wrath.
Joe 2:9 They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief.
They shall run to and fro in the city. What city is this?…. Jerusalem again. How can they be advancing if they are running to and fro in the city?
Joe 2:10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:
Here we see the cosmic signs. So an alarm was sounded in Jerusalem near the day of the Lord, the warriors are running to and fro in Jerusalem, and then after that we see the cosmic signs. Of course you won’t see it because your view prevents you from just reading what it says.
Joe 2:11 And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?
Now we see the Lord defeating the armies for the day of the Lord is great and very terrible. You of all people should very clearly understand what the “day of the Lord” is but for your readers I will cite other scripture defining this event. The event spoken of in Joel 2 very clearly is “the day of the Lord”. The fury of the Lord is upon all the armies of the nations he has utterly destroyed them (Isa 34:2). After the description of the slain we see the cosmic signs again. We know the cosmic signs occur around what you call the initial return of Jesus. Everywhere in the OT these cosmic signs are associated with God defeating the armies aligned against Israel.
Zep 3:8 Therefore wait ye upon me, saith the LORD, until the day that I rise up to the prey: for my determination is to gather the nations, that I may assemble the kingdoms, to pour upon them mine indignation, even all my fierce anger: for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of my jealousy. Zep 3:9 For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the LORD, to serve him with one consent.
It is clear here in Zephaniah as well. Wait upon me says the Lord until the day all the earth is devoured with the fire of His jealousy. For then will He turn to a people of pure heart (after torching the earth). God gathers the nations. He is the one that leads them to the slaughter He has prepared. Here is that slaughter shown in Isaiah 13.
Isa 13:6 Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty. Isa 13:7 Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man\’s heart shall melt: Isa 13:8 And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames. Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. Isa 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. Isa 13:11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible. Isa 13:12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir. Isa 13:13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.
Again the removal of sinners is associated with the cosmic signs it is everywhere you look in the bible.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
The sinners are mourning because the wrath of God has just been poured out upon them. This is the same reason they wail in Rev 1:7 and hide from the face of the Lamb in Rev 6. The story is consistent everywhere in the bible yet you refuse to see it…tsk…tsk…I can only point it out to you the rest is up to you.
Peace,Seeker
Hey Seeker- I’ll respond to the 5-4-07 post first. The announcement by the earth-dwellers that the day of His wrath has come does not mean the wrath is being poured out. It means they know they are shortly going to be the recipients of that wrath. They are "in mourning" as the Matthew text puts it. Then we have the sealing of the 144,000, then the church comes out of the great tribulation.
Beginning in chapter 8 we have the silence which precedes the day of the LORD. Then the incense which signifies the prayers of vengeance (Rev. 6:10) for the saints comes up before the LORD. The censer is cast into the earth to show that God’s vengeance on behalf of His saints will now be executed. The wrath begins with the trumpets. This is the time of the fire and brimstone being poured out onto the earth. At the sixth seal, we just have a bunch of people running around because they are scared. There is no wrath mentioned in the passage you cite, only the terror in the hearts of men that the wrath has now come. And it has come and will shortly be poured out when the first trumpet is sounded, but not before the church enters into that "rest" as described in Rev. 7:9-17.
The kingdoms of this world do not become the kingdoms of our God and of His Christ until the seventh trumpet. Here is where the saints inherit the kingdom as they are given their rewards, Rev. 11:18. This is after all seven trumpets have been sounded during which time the saints (the church) have been in the presence of the LORD behind closed doors, completely exempt from experiencing the wrath.
I have showed you where the elect are gathered between the cosmic signs and the wrath that is poured out during the seven trumpets which the announcement at the sixth seal is a portent, not the wrath itself.
Have fun and stay busy – Luke 19:13
-The Orange Mailman
Hey Seeker- First off, let me apologize if my responses come across as being arrogant. I certainly don’t know all there is to know. I’m still studying as are you. But on to some good old fashioned debate.
With Joel 2, yes the advancing army eventually gets to Jerusalem. The language in 2:3 shows that they are on a march with the land before them lush, but the land behind them barren as a desert. 2:5 talks about the possibility of them leaping over mountains. But analyzing Joel 2:1-11 does not reprove what I am setting forth as to how all the passages in Joel fit together as a whole.
The theme of Joel is the repentance of Israel. The opening of the book is a call to reflection to those who are in Jerusalem. Whoever the voice is in 1:2-3 prompts the Israelites to try to remember if the events that they are currently witnessing have ever happened before. I’m assuming we share the prophetic tense view of these scriptures. Joel goes on to prophesy of three circumstances that the LORD will use to get Israel’s attention. #1- famine/drought ~ 1:4-5 (with further description in 1:17-20), #2- an advancing army ~ 1:6-7 (with further description in 2:1-11), #3- the ceasing of sacrifices at the temple ~ 1:9-16. We have detailed descriptions of these things, but the description is meant to drive Israel into the arms of her God.
So after 2:11, we have a description of the repentance of Israel. It seems that this is the same voice which spoke at the beginning of the prophesy. This is someone (the two witnesses?) begging and pleading with Israel to sanctify a fast (even if they are breast-feeding) and fall on their faces before the LORD. "Why should the nations say, ‘Where is their God?’"
It works. The LORD begins to act on Israel’s behalf. God deals with the three items that brought them to repentance. The description of this is found in Joel 2:18-27. So the description of the cosmic signs at Joel 2:11 does not necessitate Armageddon at that moment. Do you get what I’m writing here? The cosmic signs are described, we "cut away" to view the spiritual condition of Israel as she repents, then God begins to act. We have some overlap. Note the way God begins to act on Israel’s behalf. He removes the northern army. Nothing is said here about a gathering of all nations or a universal slaughter. This begins AFTER Judah and Jerusalem are brought back from captivity, Joel 3:1-2. This puts us just after the cosmic signs, which makes good sense because the pouring out of the Holy Spirit and cosmic signs have just been described.
Trying to view Joel as strictly chronological creates confusion since the cosmic signs are described three times. The book is more thematic. But the point I’m making, or trying to make, is that we have two different ways that God will act. First, He will remove the immediate danger of His people at their repentance. Later after His initial return, He taunts the nations into gathering together against Him in order to bring glory to His name. We know from the NT that Satan will be deceiving the nations at this time as well. But that deception at the sixth bowl occurs well after the reaping of the Son of Man and after those who obtain victory over the beast are standing in the presence of God.
The cosmic signs are associated in the OT with the judgement upon the nations, or so it seems. This may be why the nations are in such terror as they initially occur. But the way in which the wrath will be executed is laid out for us in the book of Revelation in a seven phase process, much in the same way the wrath poured out on Egypt was done so in a ten phase process. The ten plagues occurred over a period of time giving the Egyptians chance after chance in between these plagues to repent. It will be the same way as the wrath is being poured out in the last day. The first phase will occur with the opportunity for the nations to repent, yet their final destruction will not have come. Then the second, then the third, finally we arrive at the sixth phase where the nations will be deceived and gathered against the LORD who has already returned then the seventh phase where God will slaughter the nations. So to cite Isaiah 13 and Zephaniah 3 really does no good in my mind. Yes God intends to do these things, but His plan is to gather His people to Himself before He judges the earth.
Instead of reiterating what I wrote just below, concerning Matthew 24:29-31 and the use of the term "mourn", this corresponds with the cry of terror at the sixth seal, the fear of the LORD in Isaiah 2:19-21, and the wailing in Revelation 1:7. It is not the experience of the wrath that is described there, but the fear of the wrath which will shortly take place. Because the nations cry out in terror when He initially arrives, this doesn’t prove a PostWrath rapture.
Have fun and stay busy – Luke 19:13
-The Orange Mailman
P.S. Thanks for posting the scriptures for all my readers who may not be up to speed on all the ground we have covered in the past, all two of them. LOL!
Hi Orange,
Maybe over confidence would have been a better term than arrogance in this situation. Here\’s what I don\’t get in your thought pattern. Let me post this quote from your post to illustrate what I find baffling in your understanding.
"The kingdoms of this world do not become the kingdoms of our God and of His Christ until the seventh trumpet. Here is where the saints inherit the kingdom as they are given their rewards, Rev. 11:18. This is after all seven trumpets have been sounded during which time the saints (the church) have been in the presence of the LORD behind closed doors, completely exempt from experiencing the wrath."
You recognize that Jesus does not set up the kingdom until the 7th trumpet sounds. You equate the vials and trumpets as occurring concurrently. The vials are no doubt God\’s wrath as are the trumpets. The trumpets and vials occur before the end of the last 7 years (at least 5 months).
Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
In the days that the 7th trumpet sounds the mystery of God is completed as he declared through the prophets. Everything leading up to the creation of the everlasting kingdom on earth has been fulfilled at this point. Every prophecy relating to the last 7 years has been fulfilled and the millennium begins. This I believe we both agree on.
You have to place the rapture at least 5 months before year 7 ends. Six months would be a half of time. How do you reconcile all the precise 3.5 year scriptures? I know you are going to respond with it is cut short. That really makes no sense as why it says time, times, and the dividing of time when it is 3 times? Your view cuts 6 months off the time the AC has to persecute the saints.
Dan 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; Dan 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. Rev 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
The saints are clearly given into the AC’s hands for 3 ½ years. Yet you have the saints being removed at 3 years. You see something doesn’t add up here.
Rev 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
The two witnesses prophecy for 1260 days ending at the 7th trumpet. The holy city, Jerusalem, is being trodden under for 42 months beginning at the AOD. Now this is where Daniel 7 is vital to our understanding. Remember it says that the AC makes war with the saints until the Ancient of days came and the time came for the saints to inherit the everlasting kingdom. We know that the saints inherit the everlasting kingdom at the 7th trumpet. The AC is still attacking them up to this point, no way around it without ignoring these precise 3.5 year prophecies. The tribulation starts at the AOD and lasts 3 ½ years you have it only lasting 3 years for the saints.
Jesus does say that unless those days were cut short no flesh would be saved. Maybe it was planned to be 4 years long and was cut short to 3 ½ years. I actually believe it means that if what the AC started was allowed to progress to its conclusion no man would be left alive on earth. Sometime after around 4 billion people have died on earth Jesus deems it enough and steps in to end it which is at the 7th trumpet.
Peace,Seeker
Alright Seeker, this may not be the way you see it, but this is the way I deal with the scriptures that you have cited. They make a good point. I have often considered this view only to come back time and again to the PreWrath position. BTW, you are writing like a true PostTribber in your last post.
Daniel 7 tells us that the saints are given into the hand of the little horn for time, times, and half a time. I agree that the general idea here is 3 ½ years. But one thing to note here before moving into the New Testament clarification is that the saints receive the kingdom after that time. So the real issue to me is that the little horn will receive authority on the earth to rule in such a way as to have authority over all saints on the earth for a 3 ½ year period. From Daniel’s vision of seventy weeks we know this to be the last half of Daniel’s seventieth week. This puts the reign of the little horn beginning at the midpoint and ending at the conclusion of the seven year period.
Now let’s just try to forget everything else for a second and concentrate on the passage that actually deals with the 3 ½ year period during which the little horn, or the beast of Revelation 13, will reign. The passage that I’m writing about is Revelation 12-16. First off, we know that the woman flees into the wilderness for time, times, and half a time, also described as 1260 days. This is a time of persecution against the woman, who I believe is symbolic of the true Israel or the church or the saints.
The next thing we see is that the beast of Revelation begins his supernaturally powered reign with power to continue for 42 months. So from the time that he begins until his end, we have a time clock of 42 months, no longer. During this time it says that he blasphemes God and makes war with the saints while the world in general (excepting the elect) worship him.
At the same time the false prophet begins to use his power to cause the world to worship the first beast. He performs miracles, including bringing an image of the first beast to life. He causes the world to take the mark of the first beast otherwise they will not be able to buy or sell. This is all happening within the 42 months.
Next we are introduced to the 144,000 who are sealed within the 42 months. The gospel is preached throughout the entire world during this same time period. Babylon the Great falls during this time period. There is a warning that whoever takes the mark of the beast (during this time period) will suffer torment forever and ever, but blessed are the dead who die in the LORD (yes, affirms the Spirit, that they may rest from their labors).
Then we have the two reapings. The Son of Man reaps the earth then an angel reaps the earth and throws what he reaps into the great winepress of the wrath of God. Then immediately following, we see all those who obtained victory over the beast standing on the sea of glass (which we know is before the throne, Rev. 4:6). Note here: the beast is still alive and well, but the reaping of the Son of Man has taken place and those who have gotten victory over the beast are in the very presence of God. We are still within the 42 months.
Now we have the wrath of God which will result in the ultimate destruction of the beast. His destruction will be the final bookend on his life. The 42 months opened at the midpoint, shortly after which he began persecuting the saints along with the false prophet’s introduction of the mark of the beast. Now his life will end at the seventh bowl. The Son of Man has already come in the clouds, but the nations are not yet gathered since that will occur at the sixth bowl. The Son of Man has already reaped the earth (the reaping of the righteous) but Armageddon has not yet happened. There is a multitude in heaven, but the beast is alive and the wrath has not yet been poured out. Then when we get to the seventh bowl, this is the time when "it is done".
So we have a 42 month period during which the beast begins his war against the saints, but before the 42 month period ends, the saints are reaped, the LORD pours His wrath upon the beast and followers, the nations are deceived into gathering together against Christ, then the slaughter of Armageddon when the beast and false prophet are cast into the lake of fire which occurs at the end of the 42nd month.
So the antichrist’s war lasts 42 months, but for the portion after the rapture, the antichrist will be unable to physically persecute the church since they will have been brought into the very presence of God. Then as the beast and false prophet are cast into the lake of fire, the New Jerusalem descends and the saints inherit the kingdom. This is when they shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. The tares were dealt with, now the wheat is officially "in the barn". You may not agree, but that is the way Revelation 12-16 lays it out for us. This agrees completely with the chronology of Rev. 6-11 which includes a sixth seal rapture placed squarely between the great tribulation and the Day of the LORD. His war lasts 42 months but for the day of the LORD portion, antichrist directs His war against Christ Himself.
Have fun and stay busy – Luke 19:13
-The Orange Mailman
Hi Orange,
If you insist on dragging Rev 12 into this then I must ask you a couple of questions….sigh…lol.
“Now let’s just try to forget everything else for a second and concentrate on the passage that actually deals with the 3 ½ year period during which the little horn, or the beast of Revelation 13, will reign. The passage that I’m writing about is Revelation 12-16. First off, we know that the woman flees into the wilderness for time, times, and half a time, also described as 1260 days. This is a time of persecution against the woman, who I believe is symbolic of the true Israel or the church or the saints.”
Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
How can she be persecuted while she is being nourished for 3 ½ years from Satan? Satan controls the beast who is the one persecuting the saints. Rev 12:14 shows her in hiding away from Satan.
Rev 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
The earth helped the woman so Satan went off to make war with the remnant of her seed. Her seed keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Satan can’t touch the woman so goes after Christians as they are the ones that have the testimony of Christ. We can eliminate the church as the woman of Rev 12. She has to represent Israel if we are to use a spiritual meaning here. Israel gave birth to the one who would rule with a rod of iron. Actually this leans toward the church being persecuted for the 42 months….Israel flees to the wilderness under divine protection so the dragon goes after the Christians who will face the MOB and full brunt of his persecution until the time came for the saints to inherit the everlasting kingdom; which we both know is at the 7th trumpet.
Peace,Seeker
Hey Seeker- I have no problem seeing the woman in that way except for one thing. The woman is the Israelite remnant (the true Israel), not physically apostate Israel. I link the fleeing into the wilderness with the abomination of desolation. Jesus\’ words commanded those who were in Judea to flee to the mountains. The only ones who would obey this command of Jesus are those who believe in Him. This group constitutes the Israelite remnant who embrace Jesus as Messiah. Those who remain in Judea and do not flee are the two thirds that we read about over in Zechariah 13. They will perish, but the remnant will be preserved. So you can view the woman as Israel and the remnant of her seed as the church; it doesn\’t change the issues later in the text.
My main point in quoting Revelation 12 was to show that the 1260 days of the persecution there is the same as the 42 months of the beast being in power, and also to preserve the continuity of chapters 12-16. The main points of my post which show the PreWrath position come from my comments on chapters 14-16. That\’s where PreWrath shines over PostTrib (in my humble opinion).
Have fun and stay busy – Luke 19:13
-The Orange Mailman
Hi Orange,
Hey just wanted to let you know kind of busy for awhile but will be back to continue this debate. Working on something a bit more time sensitive. We have the full 7 years to discuss this but the rising AC kingdom needs to be discussed now as it is happening. I am working on something for a book someone is writing…Need this week to get it fine tuned I\’ll send you a copy if you want when I am done. Basically a continuation of the Turkey work I have been doing as you know. Anyway got to run just didn\’t want you to think you got the best of me…lol…
Peace,
Seeker
Hey no problem Seeker. I\’ll take what I get. I would be interested in a copy of your work, or something you had some input on.
Get the best of you? LOL!
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