Rosenthal’s view of Revelation 14:14-16

I’ve been trying for some time to get the rest of the PreWrath community on board with seeing Revelation 14:14-16 as the rapture of the church.  It is placed squarely in between the great tribulation and the wrath of God, just like the sixth seal rapture, which is the basic definition for the PreWrath rapture.  In short, Revelation 14:14-16 is another view of the PreWrath rapture.  It is a parallel passage to other rapture passages such as Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27, I Thess. 4:13-18, and even Isaiah 26:19-21.

 

It has been slow going though.  Most PreWrathers have a view of chronology that somehow prevents them from seeing the harvest of Revelation 14:14-16 as the rapture.  When they come to Revelation 14, they have a preconceived framework into which they cannot work another description of the rapture.  As such, most PreWrathers that I have dialogued with just lump the first reaping with the second reaping of judgment.

 

My heart was lightened when I read Marv Rosenthal’s recent article in Zion’s Fire.  But at the same time I was sad.  He comes quite close to identifying Revelation 14:14-16 as the rapture, but he stops short.  This is from the article entitled The Triumph of the Lamb taken from the Nov/Dec 2009 issue of Zion’s Fire.  Here is his view:

 

Almost all commentators group the two reapings of the earth together and identify them as the judgment of God upon a humanity that has embraced the Antichrist and taken his mark.

If these two reapings are grouped together, with little to distinguish them, as often is done, a number of questions must be answered.

First, Why are there two reapings if they are basically dealing with the same subject? What is it that distinguishes them?

Second, Why is the first reaping done by the Son of God, Himself, as at the rapture of the Church (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) and the second reaping done by angels as in the trumpet and bowl judgments?

Third, Why is there no wrath, sin, or judgment associated with the first reaping when wrath, sin, and judgment are the major themes of the second reaping?

I suggest that the first reaping has nothing to do with judgment. In the New Testament, harvesting (reaping) is sometimes used in a bad sense. However, most frequently, it is used in a good sense of the gathering of men into the kingdom of God (Matthew 9:37-38; Mark 4:29; Luke 10:2; John 4:35-38).

The first reaping is the removal of men who have not succumbed to Antichrist but instead heeded the warning of the three angelic beings and gave glory to God the Father and His only begotten Son. The Son of God does not send an angel to do this reaping. He does it Himself for these are men and women who now belong to Him. They must be reaped quickly before the second reaping commences. This event occurs at the end of Daniel’s Seventieth Week (often called the Tribulation) at the blowing of the seventh trumpet and immediately prior to the pouring out of the seven bowls. It includes the resurrection of those who came to faith and were martyred after the Church was raptured (Revelation 11:15-18).

 

I believe Rosenthal is so close, but his chronological issues keep him from seeing that it is the actual rapture and not another rapture-like event after the rapture. His view concedes the truth about the language, but placing it after the rapture creates more issues than it resolves. For instance, where are they taken to? Doesn’t this mean that other passages could be corroborated with this passage to create a post-wrath rapture scenario? Why hasn’t there been a description of the wrath upon the earth in this passage (Revelation 12-14) up until this point? 

 

Hopefully, though, people will take this to heart and examine the passage with fresh eyes.  With Rosenthal taking a bold step and not going along with the status quo, perhaps another bold step will be taken, one which sees the parallel between the parable of the wheat and the tares and the reapings in Revelation 14.

 

Have fun and stay busy – Luke 19:13

 

-The Orange Mailman

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10 Responses to Rosenthal’s view of Revelation 14:14-16

  1. Kerry says:

    Hey Orange just visiting to read the Rosenthal post. I see it is about the same as you posted at FP. I have been wanting to comment on Rev 14 but not over there so thought I might get your opinion over here. Rev 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. Rev 14:15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. Rev 14:16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.Rev 14:17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. Rev 14:18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. Rev 14:19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. The earth is reaped in Rev 14:16 and the earth is reaped again in 14:19. So in reality Rev 14:17 just picks up and repeats the story with more detail. Was wondering what you think about that thought. Thanks,Kerry

  2. Darrin says:

    Hey Seeker. Amazing. I just got back online last night. And here you come right on time.I can\’t see a parallel there. The language is too diverse. The words in the Greek are completely different. Two different words for harvest. Two different words for ripe. The first seems to be a grain type harvest while the second one is a vintage.The problem for Classic PreWrath is that they view Revelation 14 as some type of flashback to Revelation 6-11. I view 12-16 as being roughly chronological. They cannot buy that because Rosenthal believes that the bowls follow the trumpets. So when chapter 16 begins, it is picking up where the seventh trumpet left off. That\’s why Rosenthal has to put in a second rapture type event.The problem for you (I\’m assuming) is that the righteous (in the grain harvest) are raptured first and then the wrath comes after that. My view is PreWrath both in chapter 6-11 and in chapters 12-16. It\’s the same sequence in both places.My solution involves seeing parallels with the 144,000 in 7:1-8 and in 14:1-5, the great tribulation in both the fifth seal and the reign of the beast from the sea, and the great multitude in 7:9-17 and 15:2-4. When you line these things up, it seems obvious that the sequence in both places is#1 – Great Tribulation#2 – The sealing of the 144,000#3 – The rapture of the church#4 – The wrath of God.Have fun and stay busy – Luke 19:13-The Orange Mailman

  3. Kerry says:

    Rev 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. After what things?Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? Later,Kerry

  4. Kerry says:

    Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Cosmic signs, Jesus in the clouds with angels, sinners removed, and Jesus gathering His elect are all part of the same story. To verify that we goto Matt 13 where it is stated quite plainly.Mat 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: Mat 13:25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. Mat 13:26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. Mat 13:27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? Mat 13:28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? Mat 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn. Mat 13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. Mat 13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Mat 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear. Matt 13 shows the same reaping we see in Rev 14. Rev 14:16 shows the earth reaped in past tense, it is over at that point. Rev 14:17 picks up and tells the story again which continues on into Rev 15.Rev 14:16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. Rev 14:17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. Rev 14:18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. Rev 14:19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. Rev 14:20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs. Rev 15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God. Rev 15:2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God. Rev 15:3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints. Rev 15:4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest. Rev 15:5 And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened: Rev 15:6 And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles. Rev 15:7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever. Rev 15:8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled. Looked at from this perspective we see again that the sinners are reaped in Rev 14 and then the saints in heaven in Rev 15. Rev 15:8 says that no man was able to enter into the temple of God until after the 7 plagues were fulfilled. No one is worshipping the Father in the heavenly temple until after the vials/wrath of God. The simple word "reaped" in Rev 14:16 tells us the reaping is over at that point therefore Rev 14:17-20 is simply the beginning of telling the story over again with slightly more detail. It is really this simple Orange….Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, "My solution involves seeing parallels with the 144,000 in 7:1-8 and in 14:1-5, the great tribulation in both the fifth seal and the reign of the beast from the sea, and the great multitude in 7:9-17 and 15:2-4. When you line these things up, it seems obvious that the sequence in both places is#1 – Great Tribulation#2 – The sealing of the 144,000#3 – The rapture of the church#4 – The wrath of God."

  5. Kerry says:

    Hi Orange,"The problem for you (I\’m assuming) is that the righteous (in the grain harvest) are raptured first and then the wrath comes after that. My view is PreWrath both in chapter 6-11 and in chapters 12-16. It\’s the same sequence in both places."No not really a problem that is kind of what I am wanting to show you.Rev 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. Rev 14:15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. Rev 14:16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.Let\’s just look at this part of Rev 14 for a moment. The first thing we see is that John looks and sees Jesus sitting on a white cloud with a sharp sickle to reap the harvest with. As you know this is a picture of Jesus arriving in the clouds which is shown in many other places in scripture.2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. When is Jesus revealed "from heaven"?Luk 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. Luk 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Luk 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; Luk 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Luk 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. Now we can directly link Luke 17 and Matt 24. Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. So the return of Jesus in Matt 24 is the same as the day that He is revealed in 2Th1 and Luke 17. This connects Jesus returning in the clouds to his wrath which is very easy to verify from Rev 6.Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? We have the same cosmic signs in Matt 24.

  6. Darrin says:

    2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. \’Sup Seeker-I\’m glad you quoted II Thess. 1. The "rest" that we enter is portrayed as Jesus shows up to take vengeance. Taking a step back, in Revelation 14:13, a voice has just spoken of the blessedness of the dead from that point on. The Spirit affirms that it is because they "rest" from their labors with their works following. Then Jesus shows up to reap, but wait, it\’s a spiritual harvest in Revelation 14:14-16. That\’s what the word therismos means. It is used solely for the purpose of describing the spiritual ingathering of souls into the kingdom of God.So the idea in Revelation 14:14-16 (wait, make that 14:13-16) is simply not contained in Revelation 14:17-20.Have fun and stay busy – Luke 19:13-The Orange MailmanP.S. Of course you are welcome to continue posting other ideas.

  7. Rob says:

    Orange, Ijust read your post after searching for Rapture Revelation 14:14. I couldn’t agree more. I changed to Pre-wrath in a D. Min eschatology course taught by a Dispenationalist. It was Pentecost’s Things to Come that convinced me that Pretribulationalism is based on a logical argument supported by presupposition. It is not a Biblical position. At the same time I read Marv’s Pre-wrath Rapture of the Church and believed it aligned very closely to what the Scripture taught. However, I didn’t feel that Rev 7 contained the rapture. I believe that Robert Mounce is correct in his NICNT contribution that Rev 7 is an interlude which largely answers the question posed in 6:17 “Who is able to stand?” I have come to the conclusion that the rapture of the Church is in 14:14-16. I would add the following to the list of supporting references you provided above: Joel 3:13; Dan 7:13-18, Mt 26:64; and Rev 1:7.
    In Him.

  8. JPW says:

    Revelation 14:14-16 is clearly a rapture passage.

  9. Pingback: The Views of Dr. Alan Hultberg | The Orange Mailman

  10. stephen says:

    I am admittedly a haphazard scholar with only Spiros Z’s Greek dictionary as a guide, but have taught Sunday School–International Lesson– for 20 years so I feel like I have a lot of intuitive knowledge.

    While studying to teach Revelation I came to a Pre-wrath position as well, despite my Church’s and friends’ Pretrib positions. Revelation 14 and the reapers is where I felt was where the Rapture would take place. I feel Jesus’ High Priestly Prayer for all believers gives God’s position on the suffering of believers in all times: “…not that you take them out of the world but that you keep them from the evil one.”

    Pretrib to me smacks of escapism–not a practical stand of our God.

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