Pre-Wrath versus Pastor Steven Anderson

Since the term Pre-Wrath was coined several years ago, there has been a growing movement of people believing in a Pre-Wrath Rapture. In 1990 Marv Rosenthal published his book, The Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church, and shortly after that in 1992 Robert Van Kampen published his book, The Sign. Since that time, there have been a number of authors and bloggers that have jumped onto the Pre-Wrath bandwagon.

Within the Pre-Wrath camp, there has been some diversity over side issues. For instance, in Revelation 7, are the 144,000 sealed first, or does the rapture of the church happen first? You will get different answers from Rosenthal and Van Kampen. Who are the first three beasts in Daniel 7? You will get different answers from Van Kampen and Charles Cooper. When do the beginning birth pains of Matthew 24:4-8 occur? You will get different answers from Rosenthal and Dr. Alan Hultberg. There are some side issues where not everybody is in complete agreement. However, this does not affect the integrity of the Pre-Wrath Rapture position. These side issues can be disagreed upon, but the basic idea of the Pre-Wrath Rapture of the church is not up for debate between these scholars.

There comes a point, though, when someone has strayed so far from Pre-Wrath, that they can no longer be considered Pre-Wrath. It becomes necessary to examine the bare essentials of the Pre-Wrath Rapture position in order to determine who can actually use that label accurately. The following is a brief list of Pre-Wrath essentials. Basically, if you don’t adhere to this very short list, you are not Pre-Wrath.

One of the reasons for this post is that Pastor Steven Anderson has gained quite a following and is using the term Pre-Wrath to describe his position. There are others who have done the same, but their following is not quite as wide as that of Pastor Steven Anderson. He has a video out which has been publicized in many groups. For some people, his version of the Pre-Wrath Rapture position is all they know about Pre-Wrath. They join a Pre-Wrath discussion group thinking Anderson’s position is the authoritative position on the whole matter. This post is to differentiate between true Pre-Wrath and the views of Pastor Steven Anderson on the matter of the great tribulation and the rapture of the church. You can view Anderson’s chart at the following link:

http://sanderson1611.blogspot.com/2012/11/end-times-bible-prophecy-chart.html

#1- Daniel’s 70th week is a future 7 year period, but not all of that future 7 year period is tribulation, or great tribulation. The great tribulation does not begin until the midpoint of Daniel’s 70th week, that is, 3 ½ years from the beginning, see Daniel 9:27, Matthew 24:15, 21. The Pre-Wrath position holds that there is ongoing persecution and tribulation for the word of God and testimony of Jesus Christ throughout all of the church age, but the eschatological tribulation, also known as the great tribulation, does not begin until the midpoint of the future 7 year period. This is one difference right here. Pastor Steven Anderson believes more along the lines of the post-trib charts which believe that the first half of Daniel’s 70th week is tribulation while the second half is great tribulation. On Anderson’s chart, you will notice that he has “tribulation” marked for the first half of Daniel’s 70th week. This does not have support in any Pre-Wrath publication, nor in the scripture.

#2- There is a significant difference between tribulation and wrath. Tribulation and persecution for the word of God and testimony of Jesus Christ is something that every believer should expect. When the great tribulation, or persecution occurs, the church is not exempt from this. The eschatological wrath of God is something completely different from the great tribulation. The church will enter the great tribulation, but be raptured before the eschatological wrath of God is poured out upon the earth. In the book of Revelation, the seven trumpets and seven bowls are where that eschatological wrath is located. On this point, Anderson is in line with the Pre-Wrath view.

#3- The rapture of the church will occur at the sixth seal in Revelation 6:12-17 which is a parallel passage to Matthew 24:29-31, described there as the gathering of the elect. This cuts short the great tribulation before the end of Daniel’s 70th week, and shortly after this the wrath of God will be poured out upon the earth in the form of the seven trumpet judgments and seven bowls which are plagues containing the wrath of God. On this first portion, Anderson is in agreement, but there is one other necessary component to the timing of the rapture that is essential to the Pre-Wrath position. The timing of the rapture occurs at a day and hour known to no man, see Mark 13:32. Within the last half of Daniel’s 70th week, the coming of Christ and rapture of the church will happen, but nobody can calculate how far away it is from either the midpoint or the end of the 7 year period. The trumpets and bowls will take a significant period of time, but we do not know exactly how much time. This entire period of wrath is known as the Day of the LORD and will constitute a period of time longer than one day. So in one sense, it is obvious that the coming and rapture do not occur 3 years and 179 days after the midpoint (one day shy of 3 ½ years). It must be somewhat before this in order that there may be time for the trumpets and bowls to occur. The key, though, is that it is an unknown day and hour. If it were known, then Pre-Wrath could be called the Three-Quarters Rapture position, or the Two-Thirds Rapture position. We can safely say it is a Sixth Seal Rapture position, but we simply do not know the timing of the sixth seal. The great tribulation will begin at the midpoint after the abomination of desolation, but will be cut short at a day and hour that no man knows for the sake of the elect, otherwise, no believing flesh would survive, see Matthew 24:21-22, 36.

Here is the major discrepancy with Anderson’s view. He believes that the great tribulation will begin at the midpoint and last exactly 75 days. The reason he believes this is an erroneous reading of Daniel 12:11-13. He rightly accounts the 1290 days from the midpoint of Daniel’s 70th week, but for some reason he numbers the 1335 days from the beginning of Daniel’s 70th week, which is not even mentioned in the text. He sees the blessing in Daniel 12:12 which comes from waiting until the end of the 1335 days as being the blessing of partaking in the rapture. The rapture (or resurrection) are not in view here. However, the claiming of one’s inheritance in the kingdom come is in view. The blessing in Daniel 12:12 should be linked with Daniel rising to his inheritance in Daniel 12:13. Pre-Wrath basics should tell us that it is not until after the wrath of God has been poured out upon the earth that we will inherit the new earth, see II Peter 3:12-13.

Instead, the context of Daniel 12:11-13 should result in numbering the 1290 days from the midpoint, and numbering the 1335 days from the midpoint as well. These days were not given to us at the end of Daniel to be able to calculate the rapture. They were given to show that after the abomination of desolation occurs, that there will be 1290 days numbered, most likely until the cleansing of the temple, and there will be 1335 days numbered from that same event, most like until the blessings of the millennial kingdom are being appropriated, see Daniel 7:27 for same prophet reference.

The implication of believing that the great tribulation will only last 75 days could be devastating to those living through the great tribulation. Imagine seeing the abomination of desolation, then witnessing a great persecution of believers, but in your heart you believe it will only last 75 days long. Somehow, someway, at the end of 75 days (you think), there will be a rescue. The context of Matthew 24:23-24 tells us that during the great tribulation there will be false prophets arising to deceive people with wonders so great, that if it were possible, even the very elect would be deceived. Imagine a false prophet rising up exactly 75 days after the great tribulation begins and deceiving many Christians because they were falsely programmed to believe that the great tribulation would only last 75 days. This is why it is so important to take the entire counsel of the word of God from this passage. He has told us all things beforehand, Matthew 24:25. If someone states that Christ has returned secretly out in the desert somewhere, do not believe it, Matthew 24:26. The reason being is that when Christ returns it will be instantaneous, flashing like lightning from east to west. His coming will also be at a day and hour that no man can calculate, even within the context of the great tribulation after the abomination of desolation has occurred. Watch, because you do not know what day or hour the LORD is coming, see Matthew 24:42-44. If for some reason, as Anderson suggests, that the day of Christ’s coming can be calculated, Matthew 24:36, 42-44 would be null and void.

Those are the two obstacles which prevent Anderson from being considered Pre-Wrath. I suppose it could be debated that the first half of Daniel’s 70th week is tribulation, and then at the midpoint it “switches” somehow to great tribulation. I don’t know if one could be successful at it. I also don’t know how the Pre-Wrath community would receive that. But what cannot even be debated is the idea that the day of the coming of Christ can be calculated once the abomination of desolation has occurred and the great tribulation has started. On Anderson’s chart, he even notes below that the trumpet of Jubilee will sound on the tenth day of the seventh month, and this is lined directly below the event of the rapture of the church. So it would seem that Anderson has the exact day of Christ’s coming all figured out.

In order to be considered Pre-Wrath, Pastor Steven Anderson will have to renounce this idea that the length of the great tribulation is exactly 75 days and that the timing of the coming of Christ can be calculated to the day. He has many things to say that line up with Pre-Wrath in other areas, but this issue runs contrary to every Pre-Wrath author out there and to the scriptures. Because of some other controversial things he has been a part of, some Pre-Wrathers wouldn’t want to associate with him even if he brought his eschatological views in line with Pre-Wrath. For those of you who have believed that his views are Pre-Wrath, I would encourage you to purchase The Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church by Marv Rosenthal. For those who read my blog, it is obvious that I don’t agree with every detail in the book, but this is the best explanation of the Pre-Wrath Rapture position out there.

Have fun and stay busy – Luke 19:13

-The Orange Mailman

 

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19 Responses to Pre-Wrath versus Pastor Steven Anderson

  1. youngearth says:

    For the past 40 years I have heard pre-trib preached often but the problem is that the pre-tribulation viewpoint does not really mesh with scripture in any logical and consistent way. I have been very much in line with viewpoint #2 and #3 for years and now I am delighted to see that other Christians have taken a more object and rational approach to interpreting scripture.

    In the meantime I have also become comfortable with interpreting the Daniel’s final 7 as follows:

    The final one-seven is divided equally where the first half represents the 3 1/2 year earthly ministry of Jesus Christ and the second half represents the 3 1/2 year period of Great Tribulation at the end of this age. The “middle of the seven” separates the two halves and conceals the Church age beginning from Pentecost until the present day (Dan 9:26-27).

    My proof elaborating on Daniel’s seventieth seven was given to me by the Spirit as I searched the scriptures to complete “year of creation” study –

    http://www.4164bc.info/year_of_creation.html

    Not that I have all the answers but a few pieces are coming together nicely.

  2. Thanks for taking the time to read the links. I just note here what is written in the first link. At the baptism of Christ there was no confirming of a covenant. The New Covenant was cut in Christ’s blood symbolically at the last supper and then in reality at the cross. The 69th week expires then Messiah is cut off. The 70th week is after an extended period of desolation for the temple and Jerusalem. Well, maybe that wasn’t all at the first link, but that is my position.

  3. Ben Smith says:

    Have you ever looked at the possibility that the three 7’s of the Revelation are not in chronological sequence, but are three different views of the same event?

    • I have looked at that. The chronology of Revelation 6-9 shows that the trumpets must follow the seals. The bowls are a different issue. Here is a post that explains my view on the seals, with the rapture happening at the sixth seal, followed by the trumpets which are the wrath of God while the seals are not.

  4. You wrote: “Instead, the context of Daniel 12:11-13 should result in numbering the 1290 days from the midpoint, and numbering the 1335 days from the midpoint as well.”
    I agree.
    But couldn’t there be another context of Daniel 12:11, in essence that the abomination of desolation does not occur at the midpoint?
    I don’t get the adamant Pre-wrath stance saying the abomination of desolation has to occur at the midpoint, and I don’t think I ever will.
    I will take my chances that the midpoint will come along and what we will see at that time is the removal of the daily sacrifice–period.
    That does not mean I won’t be prepared for big trouble; rather it means I won’t be overly anxious in the first years of peace for the big trouble that comes after the seven years are complete.
    Good luck!

    • Hello there. Thanks for the comment. If you study Daniel as a whole, there is a pattern of taking away the daily sacrifices and putting up something abominable it their place. In Daniel 8, when prophesying of what Antiochus IV would do, it states that the daily sacrifice would be taken away and the place of the temple/sanctuary was cast down. This entire event is described in verse 13 as the transgression of desolation. It is interesting to study what Antiochus did. He took away the sacrifices and put up an altar to Zeus in its place whereon he offered up a pig. It was stated in verse 14 that after 2300 days the sanctuary would be cleansed.

      This same language is used in Daniel 11:31. The daily sacrifice is taken away and the abomination of desolation is set up in its place. The two are linked. So when we read Daniel 12:11 and see that from the time of the sacrifice being taken away and the abomination of desolation set up, those two events are occurring together with 1290 days numbered after them. It only makes sense that at the end of the 1290 days that the cleansing would occur.

      So that is the basic reasoning. I hope that helps you “get the adamant stance.”

      Have fun and stay busy – Luke 19:13

      -The Orange Mailman

  5. Hi Sir,
    Thank you for the reply.
    Compelling points, and some of the best and most thorough I have seen from Pre-Wrath advocates–seriously.
    With our beliefs in end-times events depending on the unwritten pause between the 69th and 70th weeks of Daniel’s prophecy, I just think Daniel 12:11 could be such a simple and straightforward statement that there is a definite pause between the two events. Maybe too simple and straightforward?
    When we look at what the abomination may be, and what the great tribulation may be, it just does not make sense to me that those things could come overnight on the heels of three and a half years of peace.
    I see how animal rights protestors could induce an organization of world leaders to interfere with Israel’s religious rights, and I could see the following three and a half years to be a time of religious persecution, but I do not see how that after three and half years of peace, the first years, that the world will be ready to bow to a man’s image and take his mark; they won’t be ready to do that until they fear that world organization, and they will fear it by seeing what it can do to people (godly people) who stand up to resist it during the second three and a half years.
    The removal of the sacrifice would not be the icing on the cake of religious persecution, just a pre-heating of the oven to bake that cake.
    I know I am alone here, like one man standing against a million. But what if there is a 1,290 day pause between the removal of the sacrifice and the setting up of the abomination of desolation?
    That does not necessarily change the basic premise that we will be delivered Pre-wrath, just that our understanding of the timing and duration of the great tribulation may need more consideration.
    In terms of numbers, the advantage is in your court: as the Pre-wrath movement is huge and mine is a one-man show.
    But the theory of evolution is huge, and in the politically correct sense we are in diminishing minority. That does not make our viewpoints less true and theirs more. Perhaps a poor analogy, but in terms of strength, I concede the Pre-wrath viewpoint has got to have a growing popularity for a reason.
    If I may be so bold to assume you have had some disagreements with Pre-Trib advocates on the subject of the Last Days, I would point out that when they find it necessary to revise their theories, after peace begins and a new Jewish temple begins taking shape, it is the Pre-wrath concept that many of them will naturally gravitate towards. I fear a great many of those newcomers will be going mental in the early years of peace, especially as we near the three and a half year mark, and that will just give the world more fuel for the fire in persecuting our faiths.
    I appreciate that you have taken the time to respond to my comment.

    • One thing is missing for your idea to have merit, that is the word “between” in Daniel 12:11. It doesn’t say “between” the sacrifices taken away and the abomination of desolation set up, it says “from” the time of this and that, there shall be 1290 days. I’ve heard and read this viewpoint several times so I’ve considered it. You are not one man standing against a million. Some guy wrote a book that I read stating this same thing.

      I’ve gone back over this and Daniel 11:31 along with an examination of Daniel 8 and how Antiochus IV partly fulfilled that passage speaks loud and clear that the sacrifices are taken away in order that the abomination may be set up in its place. It’s one comprehensive act with two parts to it. In Daniel 9:27, the sacrifices are put to a stop and the overspreading of abominations are the result.

      Now as far as how we can make sense of how that would happen after 3 1/2 years of peace, it may not be 3 1/2 years of peace. There will be a covenant confirmed at the beginning of the week, but the result of that may not be a peaceful situation. Plus, it’s a false covenant, a covenant with death, see Isaiah 28:14-19. They SAY “peace and safety”, but it’s really sudden destruction, see I Thessalonians 5:1-3. A study of exactly what Antiochus IV did could help shed light on the situation. I’m sorry I can’t point you to a good resource other than reading I and II Maccabees.

      As for the comment that the world won’t be ready to bow to that man’s image and take his mark until they fear the world organization, consider Revelation 13:3-4. There is some type of miracle which puts the whole world in awe of the beast. They say, “Who is like the beast and who is able to make war with the beast?” This fascination with the beast because of this miracle leads the world to worship him, see Revelation 13:8. Then there is the additional miracle facilitated by the false prophet. II Thessalonians 2:9-12 also confirms that those who reject God will be supernaturally deceived by the man of sin, see II Thessalonians 2:3-4 for the backdrop.

      Have fun and stay busy – Luke 19:13

      -The Orange Mailman

  6. Thanks for the reply on my blog.
    I did not think my “speculation” on Scriptures was any longer or more complicated than your exposition on the same. Before anyone claims to be an expert on the last days though, I think they should get a little hands-on experience. The truth will speak for itself in due season and no man’s voice speaking before the fact is above reproach. I don’t care who their teachers are or where those teachers got their college degrees, and I don’t even care if he or she claims the Word itself is their Teacher. None of us are so perfect that we can get it all exactly right.
    We are in the same boat here. We are brothers in Christ, facing troubles now and in times to come. (We have so much to be grateful for, not the least of which is the amount of religious freedom we know today). Being able to prepare and equip ourselves and others is why we have been blessed with so many valuable foresights. Unfortunately, foresight is never 20/20 the way that hindsight is.

    I admit I did not deal directly with a couple of your points; instead, I tried to be more subtle, and that may have come across as a bit hard to understand.
    As for Antiochus’s role in removing the sacrifice and placing the abomination of desolation at the same time, I cannot argue. As for the future events of similar design occurring simultaneously, I do not see how your argument is any different than the Preterists argument that 70 must immediately follow 69, and they would say that our ideas–yours and mine–of a pause between the events of those weeks is a non-starter.
    Of all the things we do agree on and could agree on, I think we might agree the most on the need to know our enemy.
    Satan wants very much to see many Christians and Jewish people denounce their faiths and betray our fundamental truths. He gets more of us to fall if the second half of the 7 year peace is not the great tribulation, so he has no interest in placing the abomination of desolation at the midpoint.
    The 42 months of a blasphemer’s power to overcome us, prevail against us, and wear us out, (Daniel 7:25, 12:7, and Revelation 13:5) is not the great tribulation. It is a persecution against Jewish and Christian faiths. The world at large can watch this 42 month storm from relative peace and safety. (There, I dealt with that one). The great tribulation is so awful because of what it does to steal so many unsaved souls through the simple act of bowing in worship to a man and then taking his mark. It is their terror and suffering, not ours, that makes the great tribulation what it is.
    For them to come to such a low point, a point that also involves the capacity to martyr us wholesale, (one of my points that you did not address), they must fear that blaspheming entity very much, and they will only learn that fear after watching the storm afflict us during the second half of the 70th week.
    “…and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished” –Daniel 12:7
    By ‘all these things’ being finished, I believe he may also mean the completion of the 70th week.
    It is pretty hard to imagine the great tribulation coming at the end of the 70th week until one realizes that the great tribulation will not last much longer than six weeks. With the abomination of desolation (the trigger of great tribulation) occurring on day 1,290 and a very notable blessing belonging to unmarked survivors on day 1,335, the 45th day of great tribulation, that blessing will give them the second wind to go the distance, whatever time remains.

    I think the main hang-up that the Pre-wrath advocate faces, aside from the timing of the placement of the abomination of desolation, is a misunderstanding of what events will occur during those six plus weeks of the greatest trouble the world has ever known or will know. Hint–It does not include the seven trumpets, only the seven plagues, and these plagues are aimed largely at the marked, whereas a couple, especially plague five may prove especially beneficial to the unmarked. I share a bit more on this perspective at this post: https://lastdaysboss.wordpress.com/2015/01/13/seven-plagues/ .

    If you would like to show me more reasons why the Pre-wrath theory is the cream of the crop, I will try to consider them, (maybe just one point at at a time from now on), then please include your ideas on what we can do to equip and prepare for trouble, not only equip and prepare ourselves but others; and with Israel being the ultimate survivor, also explain how the Pre-wrath theory can benefit that nation.

    • I would suggest you go back and study Daniel further. Daniel 9:27 places the overspreading abominations which bring desolation at the midpoint of Daniel’s 70th week as the sacrifices are taken away. Daniel 8:11-14 & 11:31 also support this and explain it in very blatant terms. So when you read that after the abomination of desolation as spoken of by Daniel the prophet, then there will be great tribulation (see Matthew 24:15, 21), we can rest assured that the great tribulation begins at the midpoint of Daniel’s 70th week.

      There are three main scriptures that show that the antichrist’s authority is during the last half of Daniel’s 70th week after he has been revealed by committing the abomination of desolation. Revelation 12:6, 14 explains that the woman will be in the wilderness for 1260 days which is also termed “time, times, and half a time”. After those 1260 days, she will no longer be in hiding because there will be no reason to hide. In Revelation 13:5 we see that the antichrist has authority for 42 months. After that 42 months expires he will be cast into the lake of fire, see Revelation 19:20-21. The little horn of Daniel 7 is given authority for time, times, and half a time. After this, the body of the fourth beast is given to the burning flame. So the last 3 ½ years at the end of this age is when the antichrist will be revealed, be Satanically empowered, and will persecute the saints. That will be the great tribulation.

      There is no evidence whatsoever that the great tribulation only lasts about 6 weeks. That is completely unfounded.

      Have fun and stay busy – Luke 19:13

      -The Orange Mailman

  7. JDean says:

    Throughout all of these posts it seems that there is an assumption that the ‘Great Tribulation’ is cut short by the Day of the Lord. I think everyone is in agreement (those that post here), that the rapture is between the 6th and 7th seal. Has it been considered that the 7th trumpet sounds at the end of the 3 1/2 year Great Tribulation? Dan 7:25 and 12:6 both strongly imply that the tribulation is 3 1/2 years, especially Dan 7:25. I would like to see a biblical justification for cutting short the Great Trib, but I can’t find one.

    • Matthew 24:21,22 speak of the great tribulation, that unless those days are cut short, no flesh would be saved. It is around the time of Armageddon (Peri-Armageddon), which correlates with the sixth plague, that the society of the marked will have reached an extremely low point of despair and will be ready to unleash mutually assured destruction (destructive enough to kill every living creature on earth). Only one thing could distract them from following through on that course. I do not believe the instruction to watch for the Lord’s return in Revelation 16:15 is an arbitrary placement. The time of Armageddon is the season of the night in which to be watching.
      The seventh plague–great earthquake and colossal hailstones–has similarities with the sixth seal that are too great to be considered coincidence. What you won’t find in the Bible is anything in terms of an earthly timeline between the sixth and seventh seals. But you will find with a careful study that the seventh trumpet coincides with the end of time as we know it and it coincides with Judgment Day. “…that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished…” [Revelation 10:6,7].
      Because the Millennial reign belongs on the timeline that we know, the 1,000 year reign of Christ on this earth is over by the time the seven trumpets sound. The seven trumpets do not belong to the society of the marked but to the nations who decide after the Millennial kingdom to follow the Devil for one final season. A careful look at the seven trumpets will say nothing of the Beast or his followers, the marked. Some take exception with the fifth trumpet, which mentions Abaddon, the angel of the bottomless pit.
      Although the beast we will see in reference with the great tribulation is said to ascend from the bottomless pit, it does not automatically mean that he is Abaddon or that he is the angel of the bottomless pit. Whoever the Antichrist may be, he must live in a place we would and could pay money to visit today. We could not visit the abode of Apollyon with all the money in the world, and we would not know how to get there anyhow.
      What we can tell of the beast is that he is a small but significant part of the fourth beast described in Daniel, which has been identified as the Roman Empire. And while that empire did collapse and fall to others, it does not mean that beast has perished; rather, it has merely blended in with the seas of time to await its chance to re-emerge. The AntiChrist will most likely come from a Western Nation, a European one I would guess.
      You had mentioned the possibility that the great tribulation being cut short may be an assumption. I already stated above why I do not think this to be the case; however, the real assumption to consider is that the 42 month or three and a half year period where a great blasphemer would overcome, prevail against, and wear out the saints of the most High (Daniel 7:25, 12:7, and Revelation 13:5-7), that those 3.5 years is the great tribulation.
      Keep in mind that it is the people of the world, who will bow in worship to a man and take his mark, that the great tribulation will afflict them more than it will afflict those who know better than to bow. There is no reason the world at large cannot stand back in relative peace and safety and watch the 42 month storm of religious persecution, all the while learning why they should fear and respect the entity that they must one day bow down to and serve and follow to their own detriment. It is their terror and suffering, not ours, that shall make the great tribulation to be the worst time in human history. Incredible as it may sound, the great tribulation comes as a very brief transition between the end of the 70th week and the beginning of the Millennial kingdom.
      Once it is realized that the seven trumpets do not belong in the great tribulation and that the tribulation does not last for three and a half years, it becomes possible to see how the great tribulation can be cut short–when the Lord divinely intervenes around the time of the sixth plague–Armageddon–to prevent the destruction of all living things.
      Owing to the immense spiritual cost of bowing in worship to a man and taking his mark–the utter removal of all peace of mind or soul–the society of the marked can go from a day of relative peace to a day where they would make a choice that would lead them to desire death in a matter of weeks, not a matter of years.
      It is the Lord’s will that a remnant of humanity be saved through the great tribulation. Of greater assumption than the existence of 3.5 years of great tribulation is the assumption that a single soul could endure that length of time being utterly cut off from society.

    • Thank you for your inquiry into the Pre-Wrath position. I shall try to address your points.

      You are correct that most Pre-Wrathers do not engage this issue of cutting short in a way that convinces. The arguments that are commonly given are such that the prophecy of Daniel’s 70 weeks outline certain things that must be accomplished by the end of that time. Daniel 9:24 lays it out that the 70 weeks are for the purpose of bringing an end to sins, bringing in everlasting righteousness, and anointing the most Holy Place. So in the chronology of Revelation 6-11, there is the progression from great tribulation (fifth seal) to rapture (the sixth seal with the church appearing in heaven in Revelation 7:9-17) then to wrath during the Day of the LORD (trumpets 1-7). The great tribulation begins at the midpoint. After the tribulation of those days is when the cosmic signs occur. So when the sixth seal opens, technically the great tribulation has been cut short. But wait. Everlasting righteousness has not been brought in, the most Holy Place has not yet been anointed, etc. So the trumpets bring God’s wrath and at the end of those trumpets is when Christ begins reigning here on earth. Now after the seventh trumpet is when the goals of Daniel 9:24 have been accomplished. Looking at the events of the trumpets, they will take a significant amount of time. The fifth trumpet has effects that last five months. The sixth trumpet has movements of armies of vast size. So this Day of the LORD wrath that occurs during the trumpets takes up several months. If the seventh trumpet coincides with the end of the 7 year period, then the cosmic signs and return of Christ have happened significantly before that.

      To get a little more specific to your comments, Daniel 7:25 talks about the entire time of authority for the little horn, especially in relation to his authority over times and laws. His entire time of authority is 3 ½ years. This does not take into account that at some point during that authority that Christ will return, rapture the church, then pour out His wrath upon the world, antichrist, and those that follow the antichrist. Revelation 12:6 talks about the entire amount of time that the woman will be in the wilderness in hiding. She flees at the midpoint of Daniel’s 70th week, in conjunction with the abomination of desolation because Christ has commanded those in Judea to flee when they see the abomination of desolation, see Matthew 24:15-20. The trumpets are the time of God’s wrath for two basic reasons (there are more but let’s keep it simple). #1- The fire and brimstone promised in the Sodom and Gomorrah analogy is contained in the trumpets, see Luke 17:29-30. #2- The wrath is portended at the sixth seal as those who dwell on the earth cry out in terror, “Hide us from the face of Him that sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb, for the great day of His wrath is come!” This will transition into the trumpets following the sealing of the 144,000, see Revelation 17:1-8, (to be preserved through the wrath of God) and the rapture of the church, see Revelation 7:9-17, (to be raptured into the presence of God and not experience the wrath of God).

      As for me, I have a view which only one other Pre-Wrath author has put into print. Dr. Alan Hultberg writes that Revelation 14:14-16 also pictures the rapture and I agree with him. The chronology of Revelation 12-16 is quite helpful and is overlooked by many. Revelation 12-13 gives the introduction of Satan’s agenda and the antichrist. The beast (antichrist) is given 42 months of authority total. The miracle of the image of the beast coming to life is the abomination of desolation. The second beast, the false prophet, causes those in the world to worship the first beast. A good cross reference is II Thessalonians 2:3-4. So the 42 months of authority begins at the midpoint of Daniel’s 70th week and extends to the end of Daniel’s 70th week. Now look at Revelation 14:14-16 as a picture of the rapture. The Son of Man descends on a cloud, see Matthew 26:64, Revelation 1:7. Then He harvests the earth in the therismos harvest. That Greek word therismos is always used for a gathering of souls into the kingdom of God, and with the end of the age in Matthew 13:30, 39 (the wheat is gathered into the barn). After the harvest/rapture, then the wrath of God comes pictured first in Revelation 14:17-20, but spelled out more directly in the 7 bowls. Before the 7 bowls occur, we see the church safely in heaven, see Revelation 15:2. Then the 7 bowls are stated to be the wrath of God, see Revelation 15:1, 7.

      Now here’s where it gets pertinent. Look at the bowls. We see the beast with followers, see Revelation 16:2, with a kingdom and throne, see Revelation 16:10, with the ability to deceive nations, see Revelation 16:13-14. In short, the antichrist still has his authority so we are still within the 42 months as described in Revelation 13:5. So the rapture has occurred, cutting short the great tribulation. Now the wrath of God is being poured out upon the beast and his kingdom while the church is safely in heaven. At the end of the 42 months, the beast is destroyed at Armageddon. The sixth bowl is preparation for Armageddon while the seventh bowl is Armageddon more fully explained in Revelation 19:17-21. So the 42 months of authority for the beast can be divided up into two sections. The first section is where he persecutes the saints during the great tribulation. The second section is after the rapture when the wrath of God is being poured out upon him. Revelation 12-16 clearly lays this progression out.

      If you have any questions about this, please let me know. Thanks for your inquiry.

      Have fun and stay busy – Luke 19:13

      -The Orange Mailman

  8. We agree on many things, yet there are enough things here that we see differently, that I would not feel right about covering them all in one reply, not to mention it would probably take me all day if thorough.
    I will start on this reply with my view on the seven trumpets:
    The 6th trumpet is not relevant to the witness of the two men. Revelation 11:1-13 is a gem of knowledge, which for lack of a better setting finds placement where it does. It is like a gem in a matrix of stone, a perfectly natural setting, yet not necessarily its final setting. It could be removed from the stone and stand beautifully on its own, all the while the stone from which it came is not altered theoretically.
    Reading verse 14 as is would cause most to assume that the 2nd woe or 6th trumpet correlates with these two men. The 6th trumpet is done being described at the end of chapter 9. Chapter 10 is a transition and an introduction into the 7th trumpet. Chapter eleven verse fourteen requires a ‘flashback’ not to verse 13 but to the end of chapter 9. That there is said to be a very short time between the 6th and 7th trumpets would very likely exclude the 1,260 day ministry of the two witnesses. Moreover, the 6th and 7th trumpets being very close together, they would definitely not be separated by a period of 1,000 years.
    With the 7th trumpet bringing about the end of time as we know it, not to mention Judgment Day, which correlates with the end of this heaven and this earth, and with the Millennial reign belonging on the same timeline which we stand on today, then the 6th and 7th trumpets, (and all the trumpets for that matter), belong to the nations who follow the Devil one last season upon the conclusion of the 1,000 year reign.
    I have briefly covered the subject of the 1,260 day flight wherein Israel flees into the wilderness, and I have covered Chapter 15 of Revelation. Both of these subjects have posts on my blog, (Contents page: “Israel, the Ultimate Survivor,” “Israel’s Identity in Time of Global Religious Persecution,” and “Rewards for Integrity in the Great Tribulation”), but I will be glad to briefly cover them here if you will, one at a time, as you would direct.
    As it stands, there is merit in the premise of a Pre-Wrath rapture. Technically, I agree to a point. The biggest differences between our perspectives would be the timing and the duration of the great tribulation. I respect the fact that you are willing to discuss it and spend your time clarifying your stance with someone who disagrees on these essential points.

  9. Mary Kay says:

    Pastor Anderson never gave an exact day or hour, did he? He is simply doing the math, period. Remember when part of the world in on say, Monday, the other half if the world is on Tuesday. So no man knows which day and certainly Pastor Anderson doesn’t give an hour.
    It makes perfect sense to me that the Lord’s wrath would come directly after the slaughter of the saints, where blessed is he who makes it to the 1335 days, as many will not. This makes perfect sense to me.
    Please tell me when the “time is cut short?”
    “And except those days {great tribulation/persecution of antichrist’s mark against the saints} should be shortened, there should no flesh {elect/ believers} be saved {from death}: but for the ELECT’S SAKE { to experience the resurrection of the saints/rapture} those days shall be shortened.
    So where else would time be cut short?

    Where does it say in the Bible that the tribulation is 7 years?
    I believe the resurrection of the saints ends the time of the gentiles.
    Then comes the remaining approx. 3 1/2 yrs, time of the Jews, which finishes the Daniel prophecy. The first 3 1/2 yrs were from the baptism of Christ to His resurrection.
    “Then he {Yeshua} shall confirm a covenant { with the Jews} with many {Jews} for one week; But in the middle of the week he {Yeshua} shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. { by His atoning death.}
    The remaining time, His wrath {of which believers are not appointed to} is His last call to Israel to repent, the final 3 1/2 yrs, sending two Jewish witnesses from Heaven and 144,000 virgin male Jews from Heaven to witness to the JEWS. At this time many Jews will accept Yeshua and flee to probably Petra. {Just a guess.}
    I believe Pastor Anderson is perfectly on target.

    • Thanks for the comment. My main point is to contrast Pre-Wrath with Pastor Anderson’s views. He is not Pre-Wrath because of the clear position of Pre-Wrathers on this issue. Whether or not this has a basis in scripture could take up another post. There are several issues in your post and I will try to address them all. Somewhere on my blog I have dealt with the majority of these issues, but for the sake of convenience, I will try to fit it all here.

      First off, there is absolutely no evidence that the first half of Daniel’s 70th week is in the past. There is no evidence that it was 3 ½ years from Christ’s baptism to the crucifixion. Further, there was no covenant confirmed when Christ was baptized. The New Covenant is in Christ’s blood (see Mark 14:24, Hebrews 13:20) and it was instituted at the cross, being confirmed the night before at the last supper in the presence of the believing remnant of Israelites, namely Christ’s disciples. Daniel’s 70th week in its entirety is yet future. If you look at Daniel 9:26, the Messiah is cut off after the 69th week and after that there is an extended period of desolation and destruction on Jerusalem. Only after that extended period of time does Gabriel give us a description of Daniel’s 70th week. It makes no sense to divide Daniel’s 70th week as you do because of the flow of the language. For instance, the same one who causes the desolation at the midpoint is the one that meets his decreed end at the end of the 7 year period. Other references in Daniel concerning the abomination of desolation use the language that the sacrifices are taken away and the abomination of desolation are set up in their place, see Daniel 11:31, 12:11. So it makes no sense to say that the sacrifices are taken away and not set up the abomination of desolation. The flow of the verse speaks of one time at the midpoint of Daniel’s 70th week when the sacrifices are taken away and the A of D is set up and Jesus states that the A of D is still future, see Matthew 24:15.

      Although I disagree with Pastor Anderson on the length of the great tribulation being 75 days, there is much that I agree with him on. For instance, I agree that the great tribulation starts at the midpoint of Daniel’s 70th week. I agree that the great tribulation will be cut short sometime during the last half of Daniel’s 70th week. I agree that after the great tribulation has been cut short that the remainder of the time in that 3 ½ year period will be God’s wrath poured out during the Day of the LORD. Both he and I hold the exact same position on those basics. However, I do not believe there is any way to calculate the length of the great tribulation based on Daniel 12:11-12 and the fall feasts as he does. There is a bit more to his view and I have listened to it word for word. I haven’t published it here on my blog because it is quite confusing.

      He takes the fall feasts, which occur in the seventh month, and makes a point of future fulfillment. The first day of the seventh month is the blowing of trumpets which he equates with the abomination of desolation. The 10th day of the seventh month is the day of atonement, but also in the year of jubilee there is a trumpet blown and he equates this with the rapture. But he has this math equation he uses to say that while it happens on the exact day (1st and 10th) that it has to be modified with this equation because we are talking about a 7 year period because of Daniel’s 70th week. So that 10 day period in Leviticus 23:24-32 (also see 25:9) is really a 75 day period which is symbolic in some way of the great tribulation. It’s very convoluted but he is absolutely convinced of this.

      The better view to take is to see that all three time periods (1260, 1290, and 1335) should be marked from the midpoint of Daniel’s 70th week. The abomination of desolation begins the great tribulation which is cut short at some time before the end of that final 3 ½ years at the end of the age. The blessings to be received by waiting until the 1335 days are associated with receiving our inheritance in the promised land, see Daniel 12:12-13 for the proper context. So the abomination of desolation begins the 42 months of the authority of the beast/antichrist, see Revelation 13:5. This initiates the great tribulation. The great tribulation is cut short before the 1260 days is over by the return of Christ and Pre-Wrath rapture of the church, but this is at a day and hour that no man knows. The Day of the LORD wrath is poured out upon the unbelievers and takes us to the end of the 42 months of authority because the beast still has authority while the wrath of God is being poured out, see Revelation 16. The beast is destroyed at the end of the 1260 days. But it is not until the end of the 1290 days that the abomination placed in the holy place is taken down and the sanctuary is cleansed, see Daniel 8:14 for the type that was fulfilled in Antiochus IV. Then at the end of the 1335 days, an additional 45 days beyond the time of the cleansing of the holy place, there is the blessing of receiving our inheritance within the kingdom.

      This could be coordinated with the fall feasts, but the entire sequence of blowing trumpets, day of atonement, feast of tabernacles, all is fulfilled at the dedication of the millennial temple (Ezekiel’s temple), not with the rapture of the church. That is the context of the date of the dedication of the altar of Solomon’s temple in II Chronicles 7:8-11.

      Oh, and I can’t tell you when the time is cut short. Nobody knows.

      Have fun and stay busy – Luke 19:13

      -The Orange Mailman

      P.S. I have dialogued with Pastor Anderson about this on a Pre-Wrath message board. When confronted with the scriptures and how he contradicts the Pre-Wrath position, he basically says, “Can’t we all just get along?” and does not respond with scripture.

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