The First Resurrection ~ Timing Often Misunderstood

Revelation 20:4-6

Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.

The First Resurrection ~ Timing Often Misunderstood

Revelation 20:4-6 is placed toward the end of Revelation, yet it contains the phrase “the first resurrection”. This has led to a misunderstanding of its timing. There are two errors that frequently occur. First, there is the idea that the resurrection and also the rapture of the church do not occur until after all of the previously described events in Revelation. This is a form of the post-tribulational rapture view. This view maintains that the first resurrection occurs after almost everything on any end times timeline. The great tribulation, the Day of the LORD, the wrath of God, even Armageddon; all of these events occur and then the first resurrection occurs at the very end of the age. There is another type of error that occurs within the camps of the pre-tribulational rapture view and the pre-wrath rapture view. There are variances within each position but generally speaking this view separates the resurrection and rapture of the church, placing it earlier in the timeline, then later the first resurrection spoken of in Revelation 20:4-6 occurs after all the events at the very beginning of the millennial reign of Christ. In the pre-trib scheme, the order of events occurs like this.

Pre-Trib Scheme

Daniel’s 70th week, which lasts 7 years, begins with a resurrection of the righteous and the rapture of the church to be spared the entire 7 year period which they view as the tribulation.

At the midpoint of the seven years occurs the abomination of desolation. Some see a transition from tribulation to great tribulation at the midpoint. The entire tribulation is God’s wrath and the church is spared from the entire 7 years therefore being spared from God’s wrath.

At the end of Daniel’s 70th week, the first resurrection occurs which is for the martyrs who died during the tribulation and great tribulation. There are some differences within dispensationalism as to when the old testament saints are raised. Some view them as part of the church, some say they are not part of the church so their resurrection will not occur until the first resurrection which they view as the later resurrection.

The Pre-Wrath Rapture scheme is slightly different, but many times committing what I feel is the same error. Here is a sketch of this timeline.

Pre-Wrath Scheme

Daniel’s 70th week, which lasts 7 years, begins with the confirming of a covenant for a seven year period.

At the midpoint of the seven years occurs the abomination of desolation. This is when the great tribulation begins.

At some unknown time between the abomination of desolation and the end of Daniel’s 70th week, the coming of Christ occurs whereby all the righteous dead are resurrected and remaining believers are raptured into the presence of God in heaven. This event ends the great tribulation and begins the wrath of God thereby making the rapture “Pre-Wrath”.

What follows this is called the Day of the LORD and contains the wrath of God. This time period takes us to the end of Daniel’s 70th week. The seven trumpets and seven bowls from Revelation occur during this time period.

At the end of Daniel’s 70th week, after the trumpets, bowls, and the battle of Armageddon is when the first resurrection occurs. Those who became believers after the rapture during the Day of the LORD and were martyred for their faith are brought to life in what is termed the first resurrection. They join the rest of the church in reigning with Christ for the millennium.

Post-Trib Scheme

Putting aside differences on a Historicist view, post-trib usually believes all the end times events occur first, including the great tribulation, the wrath of God, and Armageddon. Then on the final day at the end of the age, the first resurrection occurs. It is at this time that all the dead are raised and living believers are translated into the kingdom of God which is now established here on earth. Post-tribbers rarely believe that the rapture results in believers going to heaven.

The Facts

As good intentioned as all of these students of prophecy are, I think the majority are overlooking one very simple fact. One aspect of the timing of the first resurrection can be determined by simply looking at the events in Revelation 20:4-6. Because of the term “first resurrection”, it should tip us off that this really is the first resurrection occurring at the time of the end. Certainly Christ is the first fruits. His resurrection has already occurred and predates any end times resurrection scenario we might assemble. But it specifically states in I Corinthians 15:23 that those who belong to Christ will be resurrected at His coming (that’s parousia). So wherever you place the parousia (which is the physical presence of Christ) is where you should place the first resurrection in your timeline.

Revelation is not always in strict chronological order. Certainly where we have a numbered sequence such as #1, then #2, etc.; we know that it will happen in that order. The seals cannot be rearranged to happen out of order and the same goes for the trumpets and bowls. How those three sets of seven relate to each other is a subject for another time though. But here I want to point out that the first resurrection does not necessarily occur after Armageddon simply because the event is described there. Just examine the verses and it should be evident that the first resurrection has occurred some considerable time before this.

Revelation 20:4-6

Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.

The first thing John mentions in this part of the vision is that of thrones and people sitting on them. A measure of authority has been given to those sitting on the thrones. The people sitting on the thrones will reign with Christ for a thousand years. It is mentioned after this that among those that are sitting on the thrones are many who were martyred for their faith during the great tribulation. They lived and reigned as well. So the idea of people coming to life at this time, meaning after Armageddon, is simply unfounded. The first resurrection must have occurred before this in order that they might take their seats. Those that were raised at the first resurrection are reigning with Christ during the millennium. It is not a question of them coming to life at this time, otherwise how could they already be seated on thrones? Also note that the verb for lived is in the aorist tense which refers to the whole action of being brought from death to life, not necessarily as occurring at that time. They were completely brought from death to life and that is why we see them already seated on thrones reigning with Christ.

The mention of the term “first resurrection” is not made until Revelation 20:5. Note that it is to be distinguished as occurring before the thousand years in order that they might reign with Christ as priests for the millennial period. This is one of the two time markers in this passage. The first resurrection occurs before the thousand year reign begins. The second time marker shows that it occurs after the great tribulation since it includes all of those who died during that time. So where in the Revelation chronology can we place the first resurrection and be consistent with Revelation 20:4-6?

The way I view Revelation 19 makes the post-trib view doubtful. The coming of Christ occurred well before the battle of Armageddon since the beast and its armies gathered together against the One who sat on the horse, see Revelation 19:19. He returns then the beast gathers together against Him for war so He is already back before Armageddon. The pre-trib view is untenable unless you divide Christ’s second coming into two phases which seems to be a popular trend amongst pre-tribulationalists. The first resurrection must occur after the great tribulation. The last view, which I hold to, is the view which can reconcile all scripture passages which mention the resurrection at the end of the age. The Pre-Wrath Rapture view holds that the order of events is great tribulation, resurrection/rapture, then the wrath of God. The first resurrection can be seen as compatible with this view in two different sequences in the book of Revelation.

First, the chronology of Revelation 6-9 shows a move from great tribulation, to the great multitude of the church appearing before the throne of God in heaven, then to the wrath of God being poured out during the trumpets. Of special note is that when the great multitude appears in heaven, they are seen as enjoying the resurrection blessings as promised in Isaiah 25:8, see Revelation 7:17. So there is clear evidence for a resurrection to occur at the sixth seal, right where Pre-Wrath places the rapture of the church. The first resurrection occurs at this very time. Many post-tribbers try to point out that the seventh trumpet is the place where the resurrection occurs. This is not the case. There is no mention of resurrection at the seventh trumpet, but there is mention of rewards. This would lend to the overall theme of events described at the seventh trumpet. When the seventh trumpet is sounded, the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of Christ. At this point in time, the redeemed will receive their placement in the kingdom as a reward. This would include some measure of authority, or we could say, having a throne reigning with Christ in the millennial kingdom. However, they were resurrected well before this. The church is resurrected at the sixth seal, spared the wrath of God that is poured out during the trumpets, then once the wrath of God is over, the saints begin to reign with Christ here on the earth.

Revelation 12-16 shows the same progression. The great tribulation occurs in Revelation 13. In Revelation 14:14-16 we see a harvest performed by the Son of Man as He comes in the clouds. The word for harvest there in the Greek is therismos and it always refers to a gathering of souls into the kingdom of God. It is used in reference to the end of the age harvest in Matthew 13:30, 39. At that harvest, as the wheat is gathered into the barn, it is stated by Christ that the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father, see Matthew 13:43. This should remind us of the resurrection passage found in Daniel 12:2-3 where it states that the righteous who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake to everlasting life and shine as the stars forever. The overall sequence of Revelation is important here as well. The righteous are harvested by the Son of Man. They are seen standing before the throne of God in heaven, see Revelation 15:2. Then the wrath of God is poured out in the bowl sequence in Revelation 16. The battle of Armageddon which is not described until later should be reconciled as occurring during the seventh bowl. The sixth bowl showed the preparation for the battle of Armageddon as armies are gathered, then the seventh bowl showed the cities of the nations falling and a statement of finality saying, “It is done.” So it should be completely compatible to see the first resurrection as occurring at the same time that the Son of Man performs the therismos harvest of Revelation 14:14-16. The righteous dead are resurrected, living believers are raptured, and the wheat is gathered into the barn to be spared the wrath of God. Then after the wrath of God has been poured out, there is a vision seeing the saints on thrones reigning with Christ in the millennial kingdom. The statement in Revelation 20:5 gives the idea, “this is the first resurrection that they will be raised and reign with Christ for a thousand years.”

In closing, Revelation 20:4-6 was not written to show the timing of the first resurrection, but the reality and result of the first resurrection. John sees a glimpse into the millennial kingdom. The saints are reigning on the earth with Christ for a thousand years. Martyrs at the hands of the beast are included meaning the first resurrection occurs after the great tribulation. The internal timing sequence of Revelation shows it to be positioned after the great tribulation and before the wrath of God twice, see Revelation 6-9 and Revelation 12-16.

Have fun and stay busy – Luke 19:13

-The Orange Mailman

Note that Revelation 5:10 states that the reign of the saints as priests will be upon the earth. It should be obvious that Revelation 20:4-6 is describing a scene here on the earth, but there are some who hold the view that the earth lies desolate for a thousand years while the church reigns from heaven. This view has no biblical support and contradicts Revelation 5:10.

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20 Responses to The First Resurrection ~ Timing Often Misunderstood

  1. Hello Darrin,

    Thanks for the good article. I would, however, qualify the “Pre-Wrath Scheme” since not every Prewrath writer holds to what Van Kampen taught. For example Habbena and myself have been arguing this for years, that the resurrection of the martyrs in Revelation 20:4-6 is thematic, not about chronology. In fact, I have an entire chapter on this in my forthcoming book this summer responding to the post-trib view.

    Keep the the good work.

    Alan

    • Hey Alan- You are correct. I thought that my qualifier that there are variances within each position would help though. And since I am PreWrath and disagree with Van Kampen on that point, I also thought that would help others to understand that you can be PreWrath and not agree on that point. Thanks for the encouragement.

      -Darrin

    • Ray says:

      Hello Alan, Darrin and everyone else. Sorry for the placement of this post but didn’t really know where else to put it. My views of the rapture’s timing follows: I have held all of the positions from one time or another. I believe that the rapture is not the 6th Seal. I believe that the rapture occurs at the 7th Trumpet Wheat Harvest. The NKJV got it exactly right in Revelation ch 14. The way that it capitalizes Jesus every time while “sitting on the clouds reaping” makes it clear. All of the other translations makes it sound like an important angel is doing the reaping. This “last trump end of the age” point in the sequence of events ends the “wrath of the Lamb period” and starts the “wrath of God”. Yes we will be here during the 7 trumpet countdown to “Jesus’ coming to get his bride”. Many of us will die and “hold fast until the end” What a testimony we will be! Yes we will return (after the wedding ceremony in heaven) with Jesus at the battle of Armageddon to start the Millennial period. The 6th Seal does start the “Day of the Lord” period which includes both the “wrath of the Lamb” and the “wrath of God”. Notice that the sun and stars go dark during various times and for various reasons during the seventieth week. The 6th Seal darkening all begins with a great earthquake. Matthew 24: 29-31 darkening is describing Jesus’ return to gather the wheat into the barn after the “tribulation of those days” (the tribulation, great tribulation, and wrath of the lamb). I hope this helps. Please pray for me to understand and I’ll do the same for you. Look forward to meeting you at the ceremony!!!

      • Ray says:

        I hope you can reply to yourself. I didn’t finish my point regarding what Christians will have to go thru during the “7 trumpet countdown to Jesus’ return” / RAPTURE. A lot of people don’t seem to have a good handle on whats going on during the 5th Trumpet wrath of the lamb. People who have not taken the “mark of the beast” yet but are not (true Christians with the “seal of God” on their foreheads) will be tormented BUT they will witness true Christians not being effected. This will give them time to see the light. Thank you Father. There will be “four groups” of people on the earth during the 5th Trumpet “wrath of the Lamb”. 1.) True Christians with the “seal of God” on their foreheads AND they do not have the mark of the beast on them anywhere. 2.) People who claim to be Christians who do not have the “seal of God” on their foreheads NOR do they have the “mark of the beast”. 3.) 144,000 with the “seal of God” on their foreheads AND do not have the “mark of the beast” on them. 4.) Anyone with the “mark of the beast” on them. Revelation 9:4 “They were commanded not to harm the grass of the earth, or any green thing, or any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.” These tormenting insects are looking for only one thing: do you or don’t you have the seal of God on your forehead. They could care less whether you have the mark of the beast or not. However, keep in mind that God cares! Revelation 14:9-11 “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.” So not only will you have to endure those insects for 5 months because you didn’t have the seal of God on your forehead, but shortly their after you will have to endure the fire and brimstone wrath of God. Unless you of course truly believe & except his gift before you die. So many people will have died during these days that waiting until then to get serious with the Lord would be a grave mistake!

      • Hello there-

        One thing that is important to understand is that the great tribulation and the wrath of God are two different things. The wrath of God is contained within the Day of the LORD, see Zephaniah 1:14-15, Isaiah 13:9-10. Next notice that the cosmic signs divide the great tribulation from the Day of the LORD. The great tribulation occurs beginning at the midpoint of Daniel’s 70th week, then it is cut short by the cosmic signs and the coming of Christ, then the Day of the LORD with the wrath of God comes after those cosmic signs. Matthew 24:29 shows that the cosmic signs happen AFTER the great tribulation. Joel 2:31 shows that the cosmic signs happen BEFORE the Day of the LORD. So your view needs a little refining because you lump the wrath of God into the great tribulation.

        When the sixth seal is broken, those on the earth (non-believers) begin to cry out in terror because they know the wrath of God is about to occur. The fire and brimstone of the trumpets parallels that of Sodom and Gomorrah. The trumpets are God’s wrath and cannot be parallel with the seals because there is a chronology to the passage that cannot be broken. I wrote a post entitled The Chronology of Revelation 6-9 and I would encourage you to read through that.

        Thanks for the comments.

        Have fun and stay busy – Luke 19:13

        -The Orange Mailman

  2. This is a good issue you bring up, since it is an objection against prewrath that I have heard from time to time. Invariably, it is assumed by many (mostly posttrib, but pretribs use it as well for different reasons) that the portrayal of the martyrs in Revelation 20:4-6 is sequential and must be placed the day before the millennium, in so many words. One of the reasons for this is the poor punctuation decision in English translations to include a stop before the statement of their resurrection. I will also be bringing out that in the Greek text the context of the shifting verbs tense-forms highlights the fact that they were _beheaded_ because of their faithfulness, not focusing on them coming to “life.” They are in a resurrected _state_, not experiencing it a supposed temporal context. Incidentally, the means by which God’s people die in the book of Revelation has been ignored and is a needed area of research. The point of Rev 20:4-6 is that these faithful saints have been overcomers. In fact, I have said this more than once: the main point of the book of Revelation is not the _fact_ of the return of Jesus. It is the _exhortation to God’s people to become overcomers_—i.e. faithful endurance within the temptation of apostasy, persecution, and slothfulness. Interestingly, I believe this is the same message that Jesus gives in his Olivet Discourse.

    If I think of it, later this spring or summer I’ll pass my chapter by you for feedback before it goes to print.

    Thanks,

    Alan

  3. mickrynning says:

    Blessings of the Lord to you, Brother Darrin! I was reading your post above and a few thoughts came to mind, if you would kindly comment on them to help me better understand what you’re position? BTW, I agree with you that Rev 20:4 is pointing back and is not the place/time of the First Resurrection.

    You state above, “Many post-tribbers try to point out that the seventh trumpet is the place where the resurrection occurs. This is not the case. There is no mention of resurrection at the seventh trumpet, but there is mention of rewards.” At the end of that paragraph you also state, “The church is resurrected at the sixth seal, spared the wrath of God that is poured out during the trumpets, then once the wrath of God is over, the saints begin to reign with Christ here on the earth.” Using the same approach, i.e., no mention of resurrection at the 7th trumpet, likewise I see no mention of resurrection at the 6th seal; instead, the 6th seal broken at Rev 6:12, continuing and ending with an introduction of God’s wrath at 6:17 shows no mention of resurrection.

    In regard to where we do find specific mention of the Lord’s return in relation to other events, please share your thoughts with me on the following verses (cf Rev 3:3, 1 Th 5:2,4, 2 Pe 3:10, Mat 24:43, Ez 37:8-17):
    Rev 16:12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial (BOWL) . . .
    Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
    Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
    Rev 16:17 The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple, from the throne, saying, “It is done!”

    Continued blessings of the Lord to us all as we “sharpen our iron!”

    Mick

    • Hey Mick- First, glad you are in agreement. This has been an internal debate within prewrath for sometime. As far as Revelation 6:17, the word “resurrection” is not there, but identical language to a resurrection passage when comparing Isaiah 25:8. “and the LORD God will wipe away tears from off all faces” sounds a lot like “and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes”. So in using Alan’s terminology, they are in a resurrection state and it is long before the seventh trumpet.

      Revelation 3:3 (along with a host of other verses in Revelation 2-3 that say that the LORD will come or come quickly) have to do with prophetic tension. The letters to the churches and Revelation itself is addressed to that final generation that will see the return of Christ. So the command is to repent, but the coming of Christ will only occur once in the future at a day and hour that no man knows. To say that Christ came to one or more of those churches in the first century is unfounded.

      I Thessalonians 5:2-4 is referring to the exact same coming of Christ as I Thessalonians 4:13-18. Just because a human author put a chapter division does not mean the subject has changed. The coming as a thief is qualified here. He comes as a thief to unbelievers because they are unprepared. But it specifically states that “that day” meaning The Day of the LORD” will not overtake believers like a thief. The reason being is that believers are in a spiritual daytime, not a spiritual night. Unbelievers are in spiritual darkness therefore the coming of Christ can and will overtake them like a thief.

      II Peter 3:10 – This is a great verse for PreWrath. The coming of Christ (spoken of back in verse 4) comes as a thief and is equated with the Day of the LORD. This leads into a fiery destruction of the elements which is paralleled in the book of Revelation in the trumpets and bowls. This leads into the new heavens and new earth.

      I already have a post about Revelation 16:15. Here is the link.
      https://theorangemailmanmyblog.wordpress.com/2012/06/24/are-pre-wrathers-chronologically-indifferent-to-revelation-1615/

      Have fun and stay busy – Luke 19:13

      -The Orange Mailman

  4. mickrynning says:

    Cool beans, Darrin—off to read your other post linked above. Blessings, Brother!

  5. Pingback: Beheaded Martyrs Participating in the "First" Resurrection – Sequential or Thematic? | ALAN KURSCHNER

  6. Cheri Fields says:

    Thanks for the article. I’d not spent much time worrying about this, but had been puzzled by the First Resurrection seeming to occur twice. That aorist is a brain stretcher for us English speakers!

    • Alan Kurschner says:

      Hi Cheri,

      The aorist tense-form is the least significant Greek tense-form in the grammatical system. Greek verbs encode what is called “aspect.” Aspect is that value of the verb system which an author chooses to portray or represent an action. Some people wrongly attribute “kind of action” and temporarily to the aorist tense-form (e.g. “past time”), but this wrong. The aorist indicates an undefined action; the author chooses this tense-form to simply state the action as a whole or summary.

      The aorist is a perfective aspect (not to be confused with the perfect tense-form), which views the action externally and is only concerned to view the action as a whole or as a simple event (not to be confused with punctiliar).

      In our case, John has chosen this tense-form for coming to “life” to move the narrative along; that is, choosing the aorist he is not indicating the temporal reference, nor is he indicating how the action came about. He chose it to indicate the fact of the action, nothing more, such as when or how it happened.

      I hope that helps.

      See the following sources for more information on the Greek verbal system:

      Basics of Verbal Aspect in Biblical Greek, by Constantine Campbell.

      Decker, Rodney. Temporal Deixis of the Greek Verb in the Gospel of Mark with Reference to Verbal Aspect. SBG 10, New York: Peter Lang, 2001.

      Fanning, Buist. Verbal Aspects in New Testament Greek. Oxford Eng.: Clarendon, 1990.

      K. L. McKay, A New Syntax of the Verb in the New Testament Greek. New York: Peter Lang, 1994.

      Mathewson, David. “Verbal Aspect in the Apocalypse of John: An Analysis of Revelation 5,” NovT 50 (2008) 58-77.

      Porter, Stanley and Carson, D. A., eds. Biblical Greek Language and Linguistics: Open Questions in Current Research. Sheffield: JSOT Press, 1993.

      Porter, Stanley. Verbal Aspect in the Greek of the New Testament, with Reference to Tense and Mood. SBG 1, New York: Peter Lang, 1993.

  7. Cheri Fields says:

    Thanks. If it hadn’t been for eschatology, I would have never bothered with this bit of grammar. What’s interesting is how different this is from what my husband remembers from Bible school. Ah, well.
    What’s awe inspiring to me is how God not only picked the authors of His Word, He picked the languages used. There are many things in both Hebrew and Greek that make them especially powerful and succinct means to communicate His message. Everywhere we look we see things to help us magnify our Creator and Redeemer!

  8. Ryan says:

    Hey Darrin (and Alan, and others) – This is actually a pretty central passage in the end times debate as it is central to millennial positions as a well (used by most if not all pre-mills to show a slippery slope of “spiritualizing a resurrection.” I am actually going to be writing an article on the passage this summer while I teach a class through Revelation called: “The Vindication of the Martyrs: A Narrative Reading of Revelation 20:4” In which I trace the thematic elements laid out by John through the first 19 chapters that inform us of both the identity and timing of the first resurrection. A great topic to raise though. I look forward to your feedback from the article once it is complete. Blessings to you all.

  9. Sandra Kruger says:

    Good day to you all. I have always seen the ‘first’ resurrection as the resurrection of all/any saint no matter at what time, but only to occur at a coming of LIFE ITSELF (Jesus), whether He being raised from the dead (many saints resurrected just after Jesus did), or coming on a cloud or on a white horse. Those that are not resurrected during the ‘first’ resurrection (a resurrection of believers only), will be ressurected during the ‘second’ resurrection which is the resurrection of the damned at the final judgment when death itself will be thrown into the lake of fire, there will be no death and no resurrection (first or second) after this. All of those that were part of the ‘second’ resurrection, will go to the lake of fire together with ‘death’ which is the ‘second’ death. Jesus IS the FIRST resurrection as I understand it, when LIFE (Jesus) appears, death cannot hold anyone that were born again into LIFE Himself, when He will be calling them out of the graves. So, when I read in Revelation the word ‘FIRST’ resurrection I understand it to be like a term, not actually the very ‘first’ time a saint will be resurrected.

    I was wondering about Daniel’s 70th week, if these seven years should include the wrath of God, because the tribulation of the saints should end at the end of seven years (1260+1260 days= 2520 days) Dan 12:11, but what about this prophecy in Daniel? Dan 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. Dan 12:12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.” and also Dan 8:14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.” I wonder if the wrath of God should not be placed after Daniel’s 70th week (2520) because, we should start counting 2300 days after the abomination of desolation has been set up, then subtract 1260 (the second part of the 7 years) this leaves us still with 1040 days before the sanctuary will be cleansed?

    • Hey, thanks for the comments. I hold to the PreWrath Rapture view. The great tribulation is cut short according to Matthew 24:21-22. So the great tribulation does not extend all the way to the end of Daniel’s 70th week. I view the 1290 days as being from the midpoint until the temple is officially cleansed from the abomination of desolation which occurred at the midpoint. The 2300 days I view as being something that applied to the days of Antiochus Epiphanes and the abomination that happened during those days. There is an end times application to Daniel 8, but the timeline there is past. We get our future timeline from Daniel 12:11 concerning the cleansing of the temple from that future abomination of desolation.

      I’m cramming a lot into a short space but your comments cover a lot of ground. As an end note, I have a minor disagreement with most Pre-Wrathers in that I believe that the bowls of Revelation 16 occur within the 42 months. Notice that the beast is granted 42 total months of authority. Now take a look at Revelation 12-16 as a whole. Revelation 16 shows the beast still with a throne, a kingdom, with followers, with the ability to wage war and deceive nations. So to me, the bowls show the beast within that 42 months of authority, yet the wrath of God is being poured out upon him. The key is seeing the rapture in Revelation 14:14-16 as the Son of Man descends and harvests the earth. The great tribulation is before that event, and the wrath of God is after that event.

      Thanks again for the comments and if you have any other questions feel free to ask.

      Have fun and stay busy – Luke 19:13

      -The Orange Mailman

      P.S. Good thoughts on Jesus being Life Himself.

  10. Sandra Kruger says:

    Hi Orange mailman  I guess there must be a lot of people disagreeing with your view, but that’s ok, as long as you don’t mind looking at a view things again? Antiochus Epiphanus did not fulfill the 2300 days, there are no evidence for this. Therefore we cannot say that Daniel 8 is fulfilled. To me it all makes sense if I include the 2300 days in my calculation of the end time events. The counting of the 2300 starts as soon as the sacrifices ceases, (Dan 8:12) this is after 1260 days of false peace had passed. The angel told Daniel that this prophecy is for the end time :19 and :26. The ‘little horn” :9 is supposed to ‘cast down the truth’ :12. This ‘little horn’ is supposed to stand up (Rev 19:19 and Dan 8:25) against the “Prince of princes” :25 see Rev 19:16 “King of kings, Lord of lords” and be broken without hand :25 see Rev 19:20, also Dan 7:11. None of this was done by Antiochus Epiphanes. The angel said that this prophecy is for the end time: “Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.” Antiochus persecuted the Jews before Jesus was born, so how can he fit the prophecy, how can he be the ‘little horn’, he was not on earth during the ‘time of the end’. Therefore it makes sense to me to include the 2300 days in the calculation. 2300-1260=1040. From the time that the sacrifice will be taken away up and to the time when Jesus comes to earth to start His millennial reign, the entire 2300 days shall the sanctuary and the host be trodden under foot, :13, it will cease as soon as the ‘little horn Dan 7:8 Dan 8:9’/the beast Rev 19:20’ be broken without hand Rev 19:20, Dan 8:25, Dan 7:11. The great tribulation saints Rev 7:14, will be persecuted as soon as the sacrifice ceases, for approx 1260 days until the 1st coming of Jesus, Rev 6:16-17. The 2nd coming will be for the 144 000 sealed followers of Christ Rev 14:1-5. When Jesus comes the start His millennial reign on earth, by that time the sanctuary will be cleansed and there will be peace, nobody will be ‘trodden under foot of ‘little horn’ anymore. So, to me, the 1040 days will be the wrath of God, and ‘little horn’ will continue to persecute a ‘host’ of people, it could perhaps be Jews and those that became believers after Jesus came.

    You say that we get our future timeline from Dan 12, it is in Dan 12 that God reveals to us that in that time Michael will stand up :1, for Daniel’s people (the Jews), see Rev 12:7. The beast trough a third of the stars :4 on earth, see Dan 8:10. You see, Dan 8, Rev 12 and Dan 12 speaks of the same end time event. Rev 12 mentions the 1260 days, Dan 8 mentions the 2300 days, and Dan 12 mentions 1290 and 1335 days. When the sacrifice be taken away, after 1260 days, the 6th seal is opened and Jesus comes for those coming out of the ‘great tribulation” Rev 7:14. After 1290/1335 days Jesus comes for the 144 000 sealed Jews Rev 14, and after 2300 days the sanctuary will be restored and no one will be ‘trodden under foot’ anymore when Jesus returns to start His millennial reign. Now we don’t have to say that God’s wrath and the great tribulation happens at the same time anymore, only if we can once and for all see that those 2300 days spoken about in Dan 8 are not fulfilled by Antiochus Epiphanes.

    This is the way I understand it. Thank you for Luke 19:13!  Yes, Jesus is the Life and the Truth, that’s another reason why I struggle to accept that Antiochus is the one that “cast down the truth to the ground” Dan 8:12, and also to be the one that “stand up against the Prince of princes” :25. Jesus, the Truth and the Life was not born yet when Antiochus Epiphanes persecuted the Jews, yet He and His words are the Truth about the Way and the Life, though the Prophets speaks of Him and those that will follow Him and be persecuted for His Name’s sake, His Life and His Words, and that’s the whole truth   !! God bless you 

  11. Sandra Kruger says:

    Oh yes before I forget, Rev 14:14-20 happens when Jesus comes at Rev 19, see :15. Rev 14 and Joel 3:11-21. This will be fulfilled when ‘little horn’ Dan 8:25 and Rev 19:19 will gather all his armies to make war with the Lamb, Joel 3:12 but they will be broken without hand, their wickedness will be great Dan 8:23 the harvest of earth will be ripe Rev 14:15, their blood will reach the horse’s bridles and the birds will eat their flesh Rev 19:21. The sword coming out of Jesus’ mouth (the Word, the Truth), Rev 19, 2:16, looks almost like a sickle, it is to reap. In Rev 19 Jesus does the reaping by the Sword, the Word. The function of a sword and a sickle is to cut, so that the vine can be gathered in.

    • Hi Sandra-

      Thanks for the reply. There is evidence that Antiochus IV fulfilled events surrounding the 2300 days. The stars cast to the ground are the godly leaders within Israel at that time. So it’s not a matter of -he stops the sacrifices and then they get started. There is much more going on in the prophecy before the sacrifices are taken away in verse 11. If you look at Antiochus’ overall campaign against the Jews you will see it included the murder of a very prominent priest named Onias III. If you take the time period from the murder of Onias III and count forward to the cleansing of the temple, it is about 2300 days. So beginning with Daniel 8:10 and including everything that the little horn (which Gabriel said came out of Greece, see Daniel 8:9, 21 for the continuity) trampled on, we have a total of 2300 days for the dominance over the nation of Israel as described in Daniel 8:10-14.

      You do have a point about there being events that Antiochus did not fulfill. But there is no way that a future antichrist can come from one of the four divisions of the Greek Empire which immediately followed the death of Alexander the Great. So we are left with Antiochus fulfilling a portion of the prophecy, and leaving the rest to be fulfilled by another dark figure, a future antichrist.

      I think you need to study the abomination of desolation a bit more. It happens at the midpoint of Daniel’s 70th week, see Daniel 9:27. Jesus stated that the great tribulation begins AFTER the abomination of desolation, Matthew 24:15, 21. Daniel 11:31 shows that the sacrifices are taken away and the abomination is set up in their place. So the sacrifices are taken away, the abomination of desolation is set up in their place, and this is what begins the great tribulation. The coming of Christ will occur after the great tribulation, see Matthew 24:29-31.

      As far as Revelation 14:14-20, there are two different reapings that are described there. The first is a grain harvest performed by the Son of Man as He comes on a cloud. Revelation 14:14-16 contains the word therismos in the Greek. This is the word for harvest found in Matthew 13:30, 39. The word therismos is always used in the new testament to describe a gathering of souls into the kingdom of God. The second harvest, however, is a grape harvest and describes God’s wrath. It is important to distinguish between the two.

      Yes, there are many people who disagree with me. But I do not seek these people out. If people want to read what I have written, that’s great. If they want to debate it, I feel that the views can easily be defended. If you have any other questions or disagreements, feel free to comment. Thanks again.

      Have fun and stay busy – Luke 19:13

      -The Orange Mailman

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